Holy ****, rip off mechanics at it again!
07-23-2004, 03:22 PM
#1
borrowed from TCC, which borrowed from ClubEL
Shops of Horrors: An investigation of car mechanics
CTV.ca News Staff
You have a 50-50 chance of getting a fair priced and good quality repair when you take your vehicle to a garage, according to W-FIVE's annual survey.
W-FIVE's hidden camera investigation of the auto repair industry has become an annual tradition. Once again, W-FIVE has worked alongside the Automobile Protection Association (APA) to get an under-the-hood look at which shops consumers can trust when their vehicle needs work.
This year's survey is the biggest one yet, looking at more than 50 garages from four of Canada's biggest cities and the results are the worst yet.
The test vehicle this year is a 1999 Dodge Caravan. Prior to beginning the survey, APA president George Iny and licensed mechanic Sam Kessam, gave the vehicle a thorough check-up and replace anything that isn't in excellent condition. Throughout the test, the vehicle was also given daily check-ups.
There was of course, there was one little problem.
"We have just left the negative post loose on the battery," said Kessam.
By loosening the battery's connection, sometimes the vehicle won't start. This is the problem the APA's secret shoppers will explain to the mechanics. Any shop that can't find the problem or does unnecessary work fails.
"You should be getting 100 per cent correction and a very small charge or no charge in every case," said Iny.
Sam has been working alongside the APA for 15 years. He thinks this year's test is too easy.
"It's a very stupid test... because it's very easy to pick it up."
Once the mechanics are finished getting the van into perfect working order, W-FIVE installs a hidden camera in the van's hood to show exactly what the mechanics are doing.
MONTREAL
"Traditionally Montreal garages have presented lower than average repair bills," said Iny.
But not this year. Although the Canadian Tire store in the Montreal suburb of Laval discovered the problem in 15 seconds, the APA received a final bill of $481.79
"We got a new alternator, even though ours was perfect. We put that back in the vehicle. They replaced our brand new fuel filter. They put in a new PCV valve, which wasn't as good as the original PCV valve, so we put ours back on," said Iny.
Anytime a garage replaces parts unnecessarily, the APA gets their old parts back, has them inspected and re-installed. When W-FIVE asked the Canadian Tire shop to explain why they did these unnecessary repairs, they sent a letter essentially saying they stand by their work.
When the APA shoppers took the van to the Ahuntsic Auto Centre, they were told several parts needed replacing, one for an especially peculiar reason.
"Apparently squirrels ate our spark plug cable... We were told that they must have nested in the engine and chewed up the cable. In fact, the cable was about a week old and had been checked that morning," said Iny.
The total bill was $368.59.
Overall, there were eight out of 13 failures in Montreal. That's a 62 per cent failure rate in the hometown of the APA.
"It does make you wonder why we even open the door in the morning. It was really too bad. We were disappointed," said Iny.
TORONTO
Toronto has a spotty history in the APA's previous surveys.
At the independent LAP Automotive, the secret shoppers were told the starter needed replacing.
The total bill for the unnecessary starter was $293.25. A quick trip to an APA certified garage confirmed that LAP Automotive rebuilt a perfectly good starter.
"They actually found the problem with the battery terminal and corrected it... And yet they then went further along the circuit and actually changed a starter that was in perfect working condition. I've never seen anything like it," said Iny.
The management at LAP Automotive declined W-FIVE's request for an interview. So, W-FIVE's Wei Chen paid them a visit. The store manager, Louie denied any wrongdoing.
"They came here with a problem. We diagnosed the problem. We told them what was wrong. They said go ahead and fix it and we fixed it," says Louie.
LAP Automotive may have been a glaring failure according to the APA, but it certainly wasn't the only failure in Toronto.
The APA was amazed by the number of places that failed by not fixing the van's loose battery connection, such as shops like the Sears Auto Centre in the Toronto suburb of Pickering.
At a Midas shop in the east end of Toronto, not only didn't they fix the loose battery connection but for some reason they needlessly rotated the tires.
In Toronto, eight out of 16 garages failed - a failure rate of 50 per cent.
"At the time we were stunned because we never expected that this test would generate this kind of failure rate," said Iny.
CALGARY
The APA's first trip to Calgary proved to be a real eye opener for APA president George Iny. Little did he know that the biggest repair bills were yet to come.
One of the first shops visited by the APA was Canadian Tire on MacLeod Trail. The van was left at the shop for about an hour. The only problem with the vehicle is a loose battery connection. But the hidden hood camera shows that the mechanics did a lot more than just tighten it.
When the APA's secret shoppers came to pick-up the van, the service advisor gave them a close look at the spark plug wires that were removed from the van and replaced. What happened next even shocked George Iny.
"Those are our plug wires. He's showing us that they're defective. He's making them defective... They're being torn. He just broke it. I can't believe it."
They also replaced the spark plugs, the spark plug wires, the cap and rotor, did the injection flush and fuel filter. All of those parts were only weeks old. The total charges were $620.47.
W-FIVE asked the shop for an interview, but was directed to talk with Canadian Tire's head office. Head office said we couldn't speak to the service manager, Richard Langwell. But W-FIVE paid him a visit anyway.
"Canadian Tire will contact you and set up a formal interview. I'm certain," he said.
In fact he repeated that message 14 times. W-FIVE waited for weeks but never received a call from Canadian Tire's head office.
That Canadian Tire's record for the highest repair bill in the country would be broken by the Sears Auto Centre at the Chinook Shopping mall.
They put in a new starter, spark plugs, struts and that's not all. As well, they did a wheel alignment, an adjustment and cleaning of the rear brakes for a grand total of $1240.28.
Incredibly, when the APA examined the newly installed struts they discovered poor workmanship. According to the APA, the vehicle was in worse shape after it came out of their shop.
"The part has actually been stripped when it was installed... They mangled the mounting hole because the bolts they used were too short. We were astonished to see that... They left the washers off as well," said Iny.
The Sears head office turned down W-FIVE's request for an interview with the service manager. But with such an outrageous bill, W-FIVE felt the APA deserved an explanation and visited the shop.
"If there's a dispute then obviously yes, there may have been mistakes made but it certainly wouldn't have been intentional. But again, I have no further comment on that," said manager, Russ Trabor to Wei Chen.
Sears' head office later sent W-FIVE a fax stating, "If there was any wrongdoing, the Company will take every step to remedy the situation."
W-FIVE was later advised that Sears had in fact conducted an internal investigation as a result of the survey and had refunded the full cost of the repair to the APA.
Calgary gets the distinction for a new all-time high for amounts charged and six out of 10 garages failed - a 60 per cent failure rate.
VANCOUVER
Vancouver hasn't fared very well in the APA's past surveys.
The APA visited the HC Tire and Auto Services in the Vancouver bedroom community of Richmond.
W-FIVE's hood camera showed they found the loose connection in only seconds. But they went on to replace the APA's battery, which was in perfect working order with another new one. The bill this time was $195.74.
They refused W-FIVE's repeated requests for an interview so Wei Chen also paid them a visit.
One of the manager's colleagues told him in Mandarin to tell W-FIVE that the work had nothing to do with the current employees. Little did he know that Wei understood every word he was saying.
"I'm just curious, why he would say that because it's the same people that the APA dealt with when they came in? So why would he say that the business changed hands?" says Chen.
They went on to tell W-FIVE that the APA battery was weak and that's why they replaced it.
They may have failed the test, but most Vancouver shops fared better this year, including a Fountain Tire outlet in Delta. It is the APA's pick as the top garage in this year's survey and a shop that Iny wouldn't hesitate to take his own vehicle.
"Believe it or not, they did the repair at no charge in under 15 minutes and they also included a complete check of our charging system and sent us on our way."
Vancouver went from the worst city in recent years to the best in this year's survey with four out of 12 failures, a 33 per cent failure rate.
OVERALL NATIONAL RESULTS
However the overall results are pretty dismal for the repair industry in Canada.
Twenty-six failures out of 51 garages. The failure rate of 51 per cent is the worst rate in years.
"They're ripping you off. You're paying for repairs that are either unnecessary or they're missing legitimate work... They're too interested in checking parts that they can sell you as opposed to finding the parts that are actually bad," says Iny.
Raymond Datt is the president of the Automobile Industry Association. He doesn't believe consumers have any reason to be concerned.
"I'm not convinced like you that the problem is as large as it's made out to be."
He says that the majority of consumers are quite happy with the service they get. However, according to Iny, most people don't know they've been ripped off. Iny has the following advice for consumers.
"You've got to really sort of be a little strategic in your thinking. A word of mouth referral from a longtime customer. Forget about advertising. I'd also suggest maybe consulting the APA website."
And you may also want to remember this advice from the staff at Lap Automotive in Toronto.
"If you think that we ripped you off, or we're ripping anybody off then don't come here, we don't need you.
Shops of Horrors: An investigation of car mechanics
CTV.ca News Staff
You have a 50-50 chance of getting a fair priced and good quality repair when you take your vehicle to a garage, according to W-FIVE's annual survey.
W-FIVE's hidden camera investigation of the auto repair industry has become an annual tradition. Once again, W-FIVE has worked alongside the Automobile Protection Association (APA) to get an under-the-hood look at which shops consumers can trust when their vehicle needs work.
This year's survey is the biggest one yet, looking at more than 50 garages from four of Canada's biggest cities and the results are the worst yet.
The test vehicle this year is a 1999 Dodge Caravan. Prior to beginning the survey, APA president George Iny and licensed mechanic Sam Kessam, gave the vehicle a thorough check-up and replace anything that isn't in excellent condition. Throughout the test, the vehicle was also given daily check-ups.
There was of course, there was one little problem.
"We have just left the negative post loose on the battery," said Kessam.
By loosening the battery's connection, sometimes the vehicle won't start. This is the problem the APA's secret shoppers will explain to the mechanics. Any shop that can't find the problem or does unnecessary work fails.
"You should be getting 100 per cent correction and a very small charge or no charge in every case," said Iny.
Sam has been working alongside the APA for 15 years. He thinks this year's test is too easy.
"It's a very stupid test... because it's very easy to pick it up."
Once the mechanics are finished getting the van into perfect working order, W-FIVE installs a hidden camera in the van's hood to show exactly what the mechanics are doing.
MONTREAL
"Traditionally Montreal garages have presented lower than average repair bills," said Iny.
But not this year. Although the Canadian Tire store in the Montreal suburb of Laval discovered the problem in 15 seconds, the APA received a final bill of $481.79
"We got a new alternator, even though ours was perfect. We put that back in the vehicle. They replaced our brand new fuel filter. They put in a new PCV valve, which wasn't as good as the original PCV valve, so we put ours back on," said Iny.
Anytime a garage replaces parts unnecessarily, the APA gets their old parts back, has them inspected and re-installed. When W-FIVE asked the Canadian Tire shop to explain why they did these unnecessary repairs, they sent a letter essentially saying they stand by their work.
When the APA shoppers took the van to the Ahuntsic Auto Centre, they were told several parts needed replacing, one for an especially peculiar reason.
"Apparently squirrels ate our spark plug cable... We were told that they must have nested in the engine and chewed up the cable. In fact, the cable was about a week old and had been checked that morning," said Iny.
The total bill was $368.59.
Overall, there were eight out of 13 failures in Montreal. That's a 62 per cent failure rate in the hometown of the APA.
"It does make you wonder why we even open the door in the morning. It was really too bad. We were disappointed," said Iny.
TORONTO
Toronto has a spotty history in the APA's previous surveys.
At the independent LAP Automotive, the secret shoppers were told the starter needed replacing.
The total bill for the unnecessary starter was $293.25. A quick trip to an APA certified garage confirmed that LAP Automotive rebuilt a perfectly good starter.
"They actually found the problem with the battery terminal and corrected it... And yet they then went further along the circuit and actually changed a starter that was in perfect working condition. I've never seen anything like it," said Iny.
The management at LAP Automotive declined W-FIVE's request for an interview. So, W-FIVE's Wei Chen paid them a visit. The store manager, Louie denied any wrongdoing.
"They came here with a problem. We diagnosed the problem. We told them what was wrong. They said go ahead and fix it and we fixed it," says Louie.
LAP Automotive may have been a glaring failure according to the APA, but it certainly wasn't the only failure in Toronto.
The APA was amazed by the number of places that failed by not fixing the van's loose battery connection, such as shops like the Sears Auto Centre in the Toronto suburb of Pickering.
At a Midas shop in the east end of Toronto, not only didn't they fix the loose battery connection but for some reason they needlessly rotated the tires.
In Toronto, eight out of 16 garages failed - a failure rate of 50 per cent.
"At the time we were stunned because we never expected that this test would generate this kind of failure rate," said Iny.
CALGARY
The APA's first trip to Calgary proved to be a real eye opener for APA president George Iny. Little did he know that the biggest repair bills were yet to come.
One of the first shops visited by the APA was Canadian Tire on MacLeod Trail. The van was left at the shop for about an hour. The only problem with the vehicle is a loose battery connection. But the hidden hood camera shows that the mechanics did a lot more than just tighten it.
When the APA's secret shoppers came to pick-up the van, the service advisor gave them a close look at the spark plug wires that were removed from the van and replaced. What happened next even shocked George Iny.
"Those are our plug wires. He's showing us that they're defective. He's making them defective... They're being torn. He just broke it. I can't believe it."
They also replaced the spark plugs, the spark plug wires, the cap and rotor, did the injection flush and fuel filter. All of those parts were only weeks old. The total charges were $620.47.
W-FIVE asked the shop for an interview, but was directed to talk with Canadian Tire's head office. Head office said we couldn't speak to the service manager, Richard Langwell. But W-FIVE paid him a visit anyway.
"Canadian Tire will contact you and set up a formal interview. I'm certain," he said.
In fact he repeated that message 14 times. W-FIVE waited for weeks but never received a call from Canadian Tire's head office.
That Canadian Tire's record for the highest repair bill in the country would be broken by the Sears Auto Centre at the Chinook Shopping mall.
They put in a new starter, spark plugs, struts and that's not all. As well, they did a wheel alignment, an adjustment and cleaning of the rear brakes for a grand total of $1240.28.
Incredibly, when the APA examined the newly installed struts they discovered poor workmanship. According to the APA, the vehicle was in worse shape after it came out of their shop.
"The part has actually been stripped when it was installed... They mangled the mounting hole because the bolts they used were too short. We were astonished to see that... They left the washers off as well," said Iny.
The Sears head office turned down W-FIVE's request for an interview with the service manager. But with such an outrageous bill, W-FIVE felt the APA deserved an explanation and visited the shop.
"If there's a dispute then obviously yes, there may have been mistakes made but it certainly wouldn't have been intentional. But again, I have no further comment on that," said manager, Russ Trabor to Wei Chen.
Sears' head office later sent W-FIVE a fax stating, "If there was any wrongdoing, the Company will take every step to remedy the situation."
W-FIVE was later advised that Sears had in fact conducted an internal investigation as a result of the survey and had refunded the full cost of the repair to the APA.
Calgary gets the distinction for a new all-time high for amounts charged and six out of 10 garages failed - a 60 per cent failure rate.
VANCOUVER
Vancouver hasn't fared very well in the APA's past surveys.
The APA visited the HC Tire and Auto Services in the Vancouver bedroom community of Richmond.
W-FIVE's hood camera showed they found the loose connection in only seconds. But they went on to replace the APA's battery, which was in perfect working order with another new one. The bill this time was $195.74.
They refused W-FIVE's repeated requests for an interview so Wei Chen also paid them a visit.
One of the manager's colleagues told him in Mandarin to tell W-FIVE that the work had nothing to do with the current employees. Little did he know that Wei understood every word he was saying.
"I'm just curious, why he would say that because it's the same people that the APA dealt with when they came in? So why would he say that the business changed hands?" says Chen.
They went on to tell W-FIVE that the APA battery was weak and that's why they replaced it.
They may have failed the test, but most Vancouver shops fared better this year, including a Fountain Tire outlet in Delta. It is the APA's pick as the top garage in this year's survey and a shop that Iny wouldn't hesitate to take his own vehicle.
"Believe it or not, they did the repair at no charge in under 15 minutes and they also included a complete check of our charging system and sent us on our way."
Vancouver went from the worst city in recent years to the best in this year's survey with four out of 12 failures, a 33 per cent failure rate.
OVERALL NATIONAL RESULTS
However the overall results are pretty dismal for the repair industry in Canada.
Twenty-six failures out of 51 garages. The failure rate of 51 per cent is the worst rate in years.
"They're ripping you off. You're paying for repairs that are either unnecessary or they're missing legitimate work... They're too interested in checking parts that they can sell you as opposed to finding the parts that are actually bad," says Iny.
Raymond Datt is the president of the Automobile Industry Association. He doesn't believe consumers have any reason to be concerned.
"I'm not convinced like you that the problem is as large as it's made out to be."
He says that the majority of consumers are quite happy with the service they get. However, according to Iny, most people don't know they've been ripped off. Iny has the following advice for consumers.
"You've got to really sort of be a little strategic in your thinking. A word of mouth referral from a longtime customer. Forget about advertising. I'd also suggest maybe consulting the APA website."
And you may also want to remember this advice from the staff at Lap Automotive in Toronto.
"If you think that we ripped you off, or we're ripping anybody off then don't come here, we don't need you.
07-23-2004, 05:17 PM
#4
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 270
I am very glad that I am present during all of my garage visits... and to be safe, I ask to see the old parts when they have been changed or removed. I look them over and make sure the work was warranted. Very scary.. I think the smaller cities like mine would fare well on that test.. seems harder to scam someone here...
07-23-2004, 06:19 PM
#5
I can't beleive most places don't automatically show you the old parts. We keep parts for a year before we dispose of them at my shop. Wheather you replaced 8 grand in powershift parts or changed a few small parts we need proof that the parts were worn and changed.
07-24-2004, 12:17 PM
#7
wish they woulda done edmonton!!! Ah well i'm not surprised, but makes me feel better that the shop i generally go to knows me personally and i work with his son, so he's always good to me.
On the otherhand, my dad used to work at canadian tire - he was the dude that booked people in to get **** done i suppose. They told him straight out, book as much as you can no matter if it's a problem or not. Now maybe they just wanted to make sure everyone's ride was safe, but i find it unlikely.
Thats why we should all learn to never get any service done at canadian tire!!! EVER!!!
I've made my mistakes in the past, and not one thing they've done has ever come out good. Once they told me i had a bent rim so like a year and a bit later after searching for a wheel, i found one....went to get it put on at a tireshop where i know the guys, and they're like umm are you sure it's the back right? cause that wheel is fine. doh! There was another sad moment in my life where i went to canadian tire. Can't remember what it was but another classic case of them being useless and try'n to screw the customer - needless to say i haven't been back since!!!
On the otherhand, my dad used to work at canadian tire - he was the dude that booked people in to get **** done i suppose. They told him straight out, book as much as you can no matter if it's a problem or not. Now maybe they just wanted to make sure everyone's ride was safe, but i find it unlikely.
Thats why we should all learn to never get any service done at canadian tire!!! EVER!!!
I've made my mistakes in the past, and not one thing they've done has ever come out good. Once they told me i had a bent rim so like a year and a bit later after searching for a wheel, i found one....went to get it put on at a tireshop where i know the guys, and they're like umm are you sure it's the back right? cause that wheel is fine. doh! There was another sad moment in my life where i went to canadian tire. Can't remember what it was but another classic case of them being useless and try'n to screw the customer - needless to say i haven't been back since!!!
07-24-2004, 12:56 PM
#8
Very interesting.
I know a guy, that took his car into CT for emissions testing and they told him they wouldn't pass it because his tires were bald [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
He told them, hey, I brought it in for emissions, not safety so WTF? They told him it was policy that they don't let the car leave the shop.
I don't understand why peole don't work on their own vehicles. If you don't understand basic mechanics of a vehicle...you shouldn't be driving anyway...simple as that. I realize that was post was investigating into shops that aren't being honest with costomers, but say that really did happen...someone's battery terminal comes loose...you should know enough to check that at the first sign of a problem. The government should make people do a basic mechanics course before handing someone their licence. Just something to teach people about the basic problems they might encounter with their vehicle and how to change a tire and basic stuff like that. I've seen so many people not even bother following a bolt pattern when bolting thier tires back on..it scares me.
I know a guy, that took his car into CT for emissions testing and they told him they wouldn't pass it because his tires were bald [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
He told them, hey, I brought it in for emissions, not safety so WTF? They told him it was policy that they don't let the car leave the shop.
I don't understand why peole don't work on their own vehicles. If you don't understand basic mechanics of a vehicle...you shouldn't be driving anyway...simple as that. I realize that was post was investigating into shops that aren't being honest with costomers, but say that really did happen...someone's battery terminal comes loose...you should know enough to check that at the first sign of a problem. The government should make people do a basic mechanics course before handing someone their licence. Just something to teach people about the basic problems they might encounter with their vehicle and how to change a tire and basic stuff like that. I've seen so many people not even bother following a bolt pattern when bolting thier tires back on..it scares me.
07-24-2004, 06:57 PM
#9
2000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 2,171
Originally posted by Brandon:
Very interesting.
I know a guy, that took his car into CT for emissions testing and they told him they wouldn't pass it because his tires were bald [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
He told them, hey, I brought it in for emissions, not safety so WTF? They told him it was policy that they don't let the car leave the shop.
Very interesting.
I know a guy, that took his car into CT for emissions testing and they told him they wouldn't pass it because his tires were bald [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
He told them, hey, I brought it in for emissions, not safety so WTF? They told him it was policy that they don't let the car leave the shop.
-the dynos are not cheap, car blows a tire on the dyno its bad news
-the inspector is driving a car at 40km/h on the dyno with a wall usually with in feet, bad things happen fast !! do you want to be in that position ???
- the shop wanted a sale
- bad tires less traction - wheel spin on the dyno - not a big deal but a pain in the ***
i have had a car come off the dyno (car WAS strapped down) and it was weird/scary all i could think was "i`m going to die in an onmi. car did not get any damage and i wasent hurt but it shook me up a bit [img]smile.gif[/img]
