Sound deadening doors!
04-18-2004, 06:49 PM
#11
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If you heat the clay up so it's nearly a liquid, it will stick to pretty much anything that has been cleaned well.
Dukk, the driver has a couple of millimeters clearance in the "wood tunnel". I the modeling clay up the sides until I got contact with the driver, and then scraped a bit off. It's a pretty tight fit as I had a certain outside diameter for the mounting rings to work within. You can't see it in the photos very well, but there is a taper to the inside of the rings to make the driver fit.
I do know Dukk has a lot more experience with this stuff that I do. So....what would you do Dukk?
Adam
Dukk, the driver has a couple of millimeters clearance in the "wood tunnel". I the modeling clay up the sides until I got contact with the driver, and then scraped a bit off. It's a pretty tight fit as I had a certain outside diameter for the mounting rings to work within. You can't see it in the photos very well, but there is a taper to the inside of the rings to make the driver fit.
I do know Dukk has a lot more experience with this stuff that I do. So....what would you do Dukk?
Adam
04-18-2004, 10:16 PM
#13
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Door skins are a touchy subject. Some people prefer to extensively modify or even completely fabricate a door skin. Others like myself prefer to leave much of it stock, and do the bare minimum to install drivers. I’d like to say that this is an intermediate step, I do plan on extensively modifying part of my door skins. The following is just part of my door skin “journey”.
The factory door mounted speaker used to reside here. I’ve used a dremel tool to completely cut out the mounting structure and plastic grill. I made as big a radius as I could without cutting into the leather door trim. The leather is tensioned across the door, so cutting into it would cause some wrinkling near the cut area. This is a good time to explain my plan somewhat. All visible plastic on the lower part of the door will eventually be replaced by a fibreglass piece covered in leather. The semi circle cut in my door pocket was to temporarily mount my 4” mids last August. The mids have since been temporarily mounted in the kick area.
This shows the leather placement a bit better. The material from about half way down to the bottom of the midbass hole will be removed and replaced with custom fibreglass work. The concept is to have the kick panel and door panel contours line up similar to the way the top of most doors lines up with the dash. I want it to flow a bit better, the factory contours in this area are OK, but don’t really show a great amount of style. To make this concept work, I’m going to optimize the driver install first and work on cover pieces afterwards.
To prepare the door skin for spray on deadener, I’ve masked off and covered the door with a piece of plastic.
The backside of the door skin has many fastener locations that need to be masked off. Also of note, is the airbag blow-through panel. Basically, any part that needs precise fitment or moves in some way has been covered with 3M tape.(funny green stuff)
This is the door after my first layer of application. I’ve used Cascade VB1S, applying approximately half a can at a time to each door. A total of 4 layers are applied to each door.
This is the finished result after the VB1S has dried. I’ve applied weather stripping around the entire outside contact surface of the door. This is to help suspend the panel from the door frame and eliminate rattles. Other contact points with the door frame also have weather stripping applied (not pictured)
The factory door mounted speaker used to reside here. I’ve used a dremel tool to completely cut out the mounting structure and plastic grill. I made as big a radius as I could without cutting into the leather door trim. The leather is tensioned across the door, so cutting into it would cause some wrinkling near the cut area. This is a good time to explain my plan somewhat. All visible plastic on the lower part of the door will eventually be replaced by a fibreglass piece covered in leather. The semi circle cut in my door pocket was to temporarily mount my 4” mids last August. The mids have since been temporarily mounted in the kick area.
This shows the leather placement a bit better. The material from about half way down to the bottom of the midbass hole will be removed and replaced with custom fibreglass work. The concept is to have the kick panel and door panel contours line up similar to the way the top of most doors lines up with the dash. I want it to flow a bit better, the factory contours in this area are OK, but don’t really show a great amount of style. To make this concept work, I’m going to optimize the driver install first and work on cover pieces afterwards.
To prepare the door skin for spray on deadener, I’ve masked off and covered the door with a piece of plastic.
The backside of the door skin has many fastener locations that need to be masked off. Also of note, is the airbag blow-through panel. Basically, any part that needs precise fitment or moves in some way has been covered with 3M tape.(funny green stuff)
This is the door after my first layer of application. I’ve used Cascade VB1S, applying approximately half a can at a time to each door. A total of 4 layers are applied to each door.
This is the finished result after the VB1S has dried. I’ve applied weather stripping around the entire outside contact surface of the door. This is to help suspend the panel from the door frame and eliminate rattles. Other contact points with the door frame also have weather stripping applied (not pictured)
04-18-2004, 10:19 PM
#14
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The weather stripping is 5mm wide and nicely covers the width of the door contact points.
Here the door skin has been installed onto the door frame.
The driver has been installed with the supplied Focal grill. As I mentioned earlier, there will be a new leather covered bottom section of the door that will “flow” over the midbass driver and neatly match up with my kick panels.
There of course is more to come. Right now my attention is being focused on the kick build up, it promises to be something different.
I’d like to thank Tom, SUX and Dukk for giving me some great ideas for both the kicks and midbass mounting. I hope I’ve passed along some ideas for other people to try.
Great hobby!
Adam
[ April 18, 2004, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: PEI330Ci ]
04-19-2004, 08:24 AM
#16
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Great Pics Adam!
You've certainly got me doing some thinking..
I have already started my 2-way kick-panel setup. I will likely still do some deadning for road-noise reduction though.
How much of a difference did deadning the skins make? The skins in my acura are pretty thin, and I'd love to give them some 'weight'..
Also, has anyone else had great success applying mat based deadning to inner door skins? like brownbread for example?
Mike
You've certainly got me doing some thinking..
I have already started my 2-way kick-panel setup. I will likely still do some deadning for road-noise reduction though.
How much of a difference did deadning the skins make? The skins in my acura are pretty thin, and I'd love to give them some 'weight'..
Also, has anyone else had great success applying mat based deadning to inner door skins? like brownbread for example?
Mike
04-19-2004, 08:52 AM
#17
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Thanks Mike,
The VB1S is mostly for higher frequency energy. You would have to apply a massive amount of spray-on deadening to lessen lower frequency energy.
If you do a good job on the door frame, the door skin shouldn't be an issue. I find many people attacking resonating door skins with deadeners when the source is the door frame. Go to the source.
If you have mounted a driver directly to the door skin, that is another story all together.
Most deadeners work on the mass loading principle, they increasing the panel mass to lower resonant frequency. If the deadener has poor adhesion to the resonating panel, it will "float" over the panel and not add any mass. The problem with adhesive backed deadeners is that they don't work well on surfaces that release chemicals or are porrous. (sp.?) Plastics in general slowly release chemicals, and wood is porrous. Ever wonder why you can smell plastic? That is the plasticizers slowly being released from the plastic. So applying sound deadening to plastic based door skins will be a little risky over time. I realize I'm not painting a very bright picture for deadening door skins, but there are some solutions available.
Applying fiberglass re-enforcement to door skins can work, but it too is susceptable to plasticizers being released. Fiberglass on wood isn't an issue. For plastic door skins I would look at using a 2 part epoxy designed for plastics with a slow cure time. This type of epoxy is designed to absorb plasticizers, and generally lasts a long time. I would use the epoxy in conjunction with fiberglass mat instead of fiberglass resin.
I've done the rest of my interior with deadening as well, I'll post that up some other time. It was a little scarry to strip the car down that far but it was worth it.
Adam
The VB1S is mostly for higher frequency energy. You would have to apply a massive amount of spray-on deadening to lessen lower frequency energy.
If you do a good job on the door frame, the door skin shouldn't be an issue. I find many people attacking resonating door skins with deadeners when the source is the door frame. Go to the source.
If you have mounted a driver directly to the door skin, that is another story all together.
Most deadeners work on the mass loading principle, they increasing the panel mass to lower resonant frequency. If the deadener has poor adhesion to the resonating panel, it will "float" over the panel and not add any mass. The problem with adhesive backed deadeners is that they don't work well on surfaces that release chemicals or are porrous. (sp.?) Plastics in general slowly release chemicals, and wood is porrous. Ever wonder why you can smell plastic? That is the plasticizers slowly being released from the plastic. So applying sound deadening to plastic based door skins will be a little risky over time. I realize I'm not painting a very bright picture for deadening door skins, but there are some solutions available.
Applying fiberglass re-enforcement to door skins can work, but it too is susceptable to plasticizers being released. Fiberglass on wood isn't an issue. For plastic door skins I would look at using a 2 part epoxy designed for plastics with a slow cure time. This type of epoxy is designed to absorb plasticizers, and generally lasts a long time. I would use the epoxy in conjunction with fiberglass mat instead of fiberglass resin.
I've done the rest of my interior with deadening as well, I'll post that up some other time. It was a little scarry to strip the car down that far but it was worth it.
Adam
04-19-2004, 12:59 PM
#18
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Smart thinking on that door cutting. Don't cut factory leather. Also would have looked into see if that lower plastic trim was removable in order to save it for re-installation in the future when the car goes bye-bye.
But that being said, excellent work. Door skins are often over-looked or only given a lame attempt........ BUT are actually critical as they act like a BIG speaker when they vibrate.
[img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]
But that being said, excellent work. Door skins are often over-looked or only given a lame attempt........ BUT are actually critical as they act like a BIG speaker when they vibrate.
[img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]
04-19-2004, 06:28 PM
#19
Adam,
you are a GOD!!
i'm waiting for the pics of the door skins and will get them posted as soon as possible...
I'll be pleading for your help quite soon... like you said, mounting speakers directly to pannels is a whole different story...
Marco
you are a GOD!!
i'm waiting for the pics of the door skins and will get them posted as soon as possible...
I'll be pleading for your help quite soon... like you said, mounting speakers directly to pannels is a whole different story...
Marco
04-19-2004, 08:00 PM
#20
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Tom, thanks for your kind words and once again thanks for your help.
For those that would like to remove the bottom plastic piece, it can be done. There are about 5 or so plastic rivet points that can be drilled through to separate the plastic from the rest of the door. The problem is that it's a big piece, it covers and helps mount the lower quarter of the door. So if you pop it off, be prepared to do some fabrication to get the rest of your panel to fasten back on the door.
The speaker grill and driver mount in BMW E46 doors can be removed by removing the driver, and drilling through 3 melted plastic pop rivets.The hole it leaves will confortably mount a 5" driver, and a 6" deppending on the radius. The speaker grill and driver mount can be easily re-installed at a later time with a bit of plastic compatable epoxy.
Mr.Marco,
I'm just a hobbiest that enjoys his hobby. I get lots of help and inspiration from people like yourself.
I like your car, and I like your equipment. PM me for an address to email pics if you don't have an image host.
BTW, when are getting a DRIVE30?
Adam
[ April 19, 2004, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: PEI330Ci ]
For those that would like to remove the bottom plastic piece, it can be done. There are about 5 or so plastic rivet points that can be drilled through to separate the plastic from the rest of the door. The problem is that it's a big piece, it covers and helps mount the lower quarter of the door. So if you pop it off, be prepared to do some fabrication to get the rest of your panel to fasten back on the door.
The speaker grill and driver mount in BMW E46 doors can be removed by removing the driver, and drilling through 3 melted plastic pop rivets.The hole it leaves will confortably mount a 5" driver, and a 6" deppending on the radius. The speaker grill and driver mount can be easily re-installed at a later time with a bit of plastic compatable epoxy.
Mr.Marco,
I'm just a hobbiest that enjoys his hobby. I get lots of help and inspiration from people like yourself.
I like your car, and I like your equipment. PM me for an address to email pics if you don't have an image host.
BTW, when are getting a DRIVE30?
Adam
[ April 19, 2004, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: PEI330Ci ]
