Passive bandpass x-over design for 8" midbass
09-24-2011, 08:43 PM
#21
They sure can - great quality mid bass can come out of 5.25s and 6.5s. But anything over 100 watts rms of Midbass between 100hz to 200hz into a 6.5 will usually blow the speaker unless you have super expensive components. This is why they make dedicated midbass drivers, and i have actually done more research and have come across many companies that make them because the reasoning I have shared with you is certainly valid. JL audio makes one - 150 Watts RMS, DynAudio does, same power, Kicker, Cerwin Vega makes one, and so does Morel Audio (200W rms - which is the one for me).
Not when its a shallow mount woofer and not when you have the space for it.
And by the way that set-up configuration you mention is not my setup. My 1997 Volvo 850 has the 5.25s at the upper door, and tweeters up higher stock grilles from factory. Those will be replaced with Fosgate power series 5.25 components. The lower portion of the door has a massive pocket opening which is an excellent place to get a fibreglass or 3/8 mdf fixture for a dedicated midbass woofer driver of 8-9 inches.
And I have found out that Morel is the company that used to make the Phoenix Gold Ti Elite 952 set. The 8.7 inch shallow mount woofer that was sold in that 1800 dollar 3-way set is still made under the Morel name and they are part of the Elate Set, or can be bought seperately for 400 dollars each woofer. It is 200 Watts of RMS midbass. Seems more appropriate to me than sending my 2-channel 801s amp to overkill components with midbass.
Not when its a shallow mount woofer and not when you have the space for it.
And by the way that set-up configuration you mention is not my setup. My 1997 Volvo 850 has the 5.25s at the upper door, and tweeters up higher stock grilles from factory. Those will be replaced with Fosgate power series 5.25 components. The lower portion of the door has a massive pocket opening which is an excellent place to get a fibreglass or 3/8 mdf fixture for a dedicated midbass woofer driver of 8-9 inches.
And I have found out that Morel is the company that used to make the Phoenix Gold Ti Elite 952 set. The 8.7 inch shallow mount woofer that was sold in that 1800 dollar 3-way set is still made under the Morel name and they are part of the Elate Set, or can be bought seperately for 400 dollars each woofer. It is 200 Watts of RMS midbass. Seems more appropriate to me than sending my 2-channel 801s amp to overkill components with midbass.
Find me one person who has ever liked that big phoenix gold morel built driver.... every post I have ever seen on them the guys have been dissapointed... Those things were junk.
Also, expensive doesn't meen better or better at handeling power. Please.
I have had a bunch of 8's and even a 10 in my doors..the best and punchiest midbase I ever had was not from them though. These guys did play a lot lower then the 6.5's though but then that would be bass and not midbase.
09-24-2011, 08:51 PM
#22
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 23
I have never heard of any such evidence of that.
Please support this claim with references to where there was complaints. Any post or magazine review to the negative would do fine. Can you provide any links to any reviews that stated this type of complaint? Because you are the first ever in my visits to online car audio communities to mention such a complaint ever took place. Therefore I will require some serious corroboration of such claims if I am to buy such claims.
And does Lamborghini and Bugatti put them in their vehicles because they are disappointing? I highly doubt it. Those cars come with sick systems. They don't mess around. The Elate 6s and 9 sets are both amazing. the ( can put out more midbass.
Also, expensive doesn't mean better or better at handeling power. Please.
And by the way, its not just about output, its also about sound quality - which is what Morels are highly acclaimed for. These things are made in Israel at the finest laboratory with the most state of the art science. So how can I possibly buy what you are saying. Have you ever heard them to be able to dismiss them like that?
I have had a bunch of 8's and even a 10 in my doors..the best and punchiest midbase I ever had was not from them though. These guys did play a lot lower then the 6.5's though but then that would be bass and not midbase.
But also, perhaps your assembly was incorrect, because a 6.5 with 100 RMS power will not handle the power of a driver with higher output levels. What were you doung? Putting Free air 8's into a sealed or ported enclosure? If you ported, was it tuned correctly? I need details if I am to consider your claims seriously.
There are many claims here stated but I am really not sure whether they can be backed up with anything concrete.
Among some of the forum posts I have read on the topic, the following people are not as disppleased as you would like to believe.
*removed*
neither does this guy
*removed*
So please list any disgruntled members in the online car audio community with either the morel or old PG 951 set.
Last edited by Dukk; 09-25-2011 at 12:45 PM.
09-25-2011, 01:38 PM
#24
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 23
Stick to the facts. I asked if there was any mid bass driver recommendations, preferably in the 8 inch range (since those are the more powerful mid bass drivers that I have seen) that will provide the power I am looking for to match the rest of my system - because 100 watts continuous per channel into your usual maindstream car audio component set will not produce 200-400 rms per channel of midbass as recommended to be the ideal power to balance out a system with about 1000 rms watts of low bass per channel.
I then came to update the thread with some new items I found. Do you have a problem with that? If so. Then list your issue.
Good luck with your oversized midbass.
Virtually nobody runs them but you seem to know better. 
200-350 watts of it would be ideal to keep up with the rest of a rather loud and disproportionate system.
Last edited by ArsenalProAudio; 09-25-2011 at 01:42 PM.
09-25-2011, 01:50 PM
#25
I have never heard of any such evidence of that.
Please support this claim with references to where there was complaints. Any post or magazine review to the negative would do fine. Can you provide any links to any reviews that stated this type of complaint? Because you are the first ever in my visits to online car audio communities to mention such a complaint ever took place. Therefore I will require some serious corroboration of such claims if I am to buy such claims.
Please support this claim with references to where there was complaints. Any post or magazine review to the negative would do fine. Can you provide any links to any reviews that stated this type of complaint? Because you are the first ever in my visits to online car audio communities to mention such a complaint ever took place. Therefore I will require some serious corroboration of such claims if I am to buy such claims.
And does Lamborghini and Bugatti put them in their vehicles because they are disappointing? I highly doubt it. Those cars come with sick systems. They don't mess around.
My point isn't you can't get good midbase from big drivers,certanly it's possible, it's that we don't need big drivers in doors to do it and very often in DIY installs it doesn't turn out that much better if any then easier to install 6.5's or 6x9 stock locations.
Where did I say it does? But then again, you are not going to think a low priced Pyle will handle what a fosgate will handle that costs more money do you?
..But anything over 100 watts rms of Midbass between 100hz to 200hz into a 6.5 will usually blow the speaker unless you have super expensive components...
I am not sure where you are going with this, but basically it's easy to find speakers that sound and measure great and can take lots of power and cost a lot less then car audio branded drivers.
And by the way, its not just about output, its also about sound quality - which is what Morels are highly acclaimed for.
These things are made in Israel at the finest laboratory with the most state of the art science. So how can I possibly buy what you are saying. Have you ever heard them to be able to dismiss them like that?
Please state what sort of assembly was used for your previous 8's and 10s in your front vehicle door. And which 8's did you have? The Kickers? BTW, those are not the most accurate mid bass drivers.
I have used :
peerless SLS
Dayton RS
Pioneer shallow
Canton QS
And yeah the kicker MMB8
Many more smaller drivers.
But also, perhaps your assembly was incorrect, because a 6.5 with 100 RMS power will not handle the power of a driver with higher output levels. What were you doung? Putting Free air 8's into a sealed or ported enclosure? If you ported, was it tuned correctly? I need details if I am to consider your claims seriously.
All drivers were in the doors "IB". Never had a door with enough room for a decent enclosure.. certanly not for a ported one.
There are many claims here stated but I am really not sure whether they can be backed up with anything concrete.
Among some of the forum posts I have read on the topic, the following people are not as disppleased as you would like to believe.
*removed*
neither does this guy
*removed*
So please list any disgruntled members in the online car audio community with either the morel or old PG 951 set.
Among some of the forum posts I have read on the topic, the following people are not as disppleased as you would like to believe.
*removed*
neither does this guy
*removed*
So please list any disgruntled members in the online car audio community with either the morel or old PG 951 set.
I have nothing against morel israel, I think they make good expensive products.
09-25-2011, 02:15 PM
#26
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 23
The reason there is a huge mid bass lack in car audio is because of the 70/30 Rule - which states that on average, signals below 500 Hz will require 70% of the power and all signals above 500 Hz will require 30% of the power. And so take your average high end component set - perhaps 6.5 inch mid drivers that can handle what, maybe 75 watts RMS at most down to about 100hz? And lets say the tweeters get 25 watts RMS to be of about equal percvieved output level.
But if the 6.5s are getting only 75RMS down to 100 Hz then in your usual car audio system setup with subs crossed over from 100Hz and below, we see a hugely disproportionate leap - as we have subs that suddenly are often times pushed over 1000 watts RMS for people who like loud car systems. So all I am saying is that for loud attention-grabbing displays using car audio systems - there is a HUGE gap here - and this problem can be heard in alot of metal music. The mid bass and lower mid bass is just not there if the components and subs are cranked. It sounds like a huge hole in the sound spectrum at around 120-170 Hz. And what alot of metal heads end up doing is crossing over the sub up to about 170hz - it kind of works, but this is not ideal because it is a muddy sounding way of doing it.
This is all I am trying to say. There is a problem i hear, and the logic in the numbers theoretically explains this. I hope I have simplified it. So I believe the solution is in dedicated mid bass woofers focusing on 100-250hz pumping out about at least 200 watts rms if we are to have a balanced high output system involving 100 watt rms components and 1000 watt subs. Please correct me if I am wrong, or if my perception of the physics is wrong.
But if the 6.5s are getting only 75RMS down to 100 Hz then in your usual car audio system setup with subs crossed over from 100Hz and below, we see a hugely disproportionate leap - as we have subs that suddenly are often times pushed over 1000 watts RMS for people who like loud car systems. So all I am saying is that for loud attention-grabbing displays using car audio systems - there is a HUGE gap here - and this problem can be heard in alot of metal music. The mid bass and lower mid bass is just not there if the components and subs are cranked. It sounds like a huge hole in the sound spectrum at around 120-170 Hz. And what alot of metal heads end up doing is crossing over the sub up to about 170hz - it kind of works, but this is not ideal because it is a muddy sounding way of doing it.
This is all I am trying to say. There is a problem i hear, and the logic in the numbers theoretically explains this. I hope I have simplified it. So I believe the solution is in dedicated mid bass woofers focusing on 100-250hz pumping out about at least 200 watts rms if we are to have a balanced high output system involving 100 watt rms components and 1000 watt subs. Please correct me if I am wrong, or if my perception of the physics is wrong.
Last edited by ArsenalProAudio; 09-25-2011 at 02:22 PM.
09-26-2011, 02:46 PM
#27
Administrator
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 16,855
Model specific response: I had MTX TXC6.0 in my heavily damped doors with 300w RMS (Rated for 150rms) from 60-250hz and they survived fine for about 3 years. Now I run a pair of Rockford RFA-64 with the same power and they are holding up fine also.
If you are killing 6.5" drivers with 200w RMS in a 100-200hz bandwidth you are either using inferior drivers, overdriving your amplifier, or listen at rediculous levels for too long.
And I was sincere in my wishing you luck with the oversized midbass. Hell, I have 10s in the kickpanels of my hearse for midbass. For most cars however, my opinion is that it is a futile endeavor requiring far too much effort for any potential return, but don't let that stop you.
If you are killing 6.5" drivers with 200w RMS in a 100-200hz bandwidth you are either using inferior drivers, overdriving your amplifier, or listen at rediculous levels for too long.
And I was sincere in my wishing you luck with the oversized midbass. Hell, I have 10s in the kickpanels of my hearse for midbass. For most cars however, my opinion is that it is a futile endeavor requiring far too much effort for any potential return, but don't let that stop you.
Last edited by Dukk; 11-17-2011 at 02:51 PM.
09-29-2011, 07:35 PM
#28
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 39
/envy
I want a Hearse, but my wife will divorce me if I ever bring one home
@ ArsenalProAudio
For starters, let's clarify what you are referring to.
A typical vehicle that doesn't have a premium sound system in it will have 18W per channel off the deck, no crossovers, no EQ, a 5.25 or 6.5" speaker in each front door and two 6.5 or 6x9" speakers in the rear deck. The response curve will roll off below 80Hz and above 8kHz. Between 80Hz and 8kHz the graph will be a total mess. There will be peaks and valleys all over the place, besides the fact that with the default front to rear fade your soundstage will continuously move around depending on the frequency range.
Imagine the following process:
1) install a decent deck with crossovers and EQ
2) highpass the fronts and rears at 80Hz
3) fade to the front so the rears are just providing fill instead of stealing the stage from the front
4) set up the EQ to depress the 250Hz to 2kHz range a bit, give some balance to the front speaker output
5) put a 100W 8" sub in the trunk lowpassed at 80Hz (something like a Kicker BassStation PT8)
6) tweak the EQ in the 40Hz to 80Hz range to tame the hump you normally get there
Now, we are still running the same speakers, power from the new deck will probably be much cleaner and increase to about 22W per channel. So the sub is fed with about 5x the power of the "midbass" drivers (which are the 6.5" in the doors) Running at modest levels, this setup will sound great. It's not going to win SQ competitions, but the point I am making is that you can achieve BALANCE without a dedicated midbass driver. A 5.25 or 6.5" driver can handle 80Hz to 5kHz easily. If peaks and valleys occur across that spectrum, settle them down with EQ.
It seems to me that you are getting bogged down with rated power, and don't really understand how the music is being reproduced by the system. Let me try to explain it a bit better. There are a number of reasons you use 5x the power to run the sub compared to the mid, but more important to understand is that the amount of power required for a given driver to reproduce different frequencies varies. The best way to see this in action is to run a sine sweep from 20Hz to 12kHz and monitor the power output of the amps. You will see the power output drop off drastically as you move into the higher frequencies, yet the sound output remains relatively unchanged.
As a rough numbers example, you would see something like the following chart:
Sub amp
20Hz - 800W
40Hz - 400W
80Hz - 100W
Midrange amp (running a passive component set)
mid
80Hz - 100W
500Hz - 50W
2kHz - 20W
4kHz - 10W
tweeter
4kHz - 10W
8kHz - 5W
12kHz - 2W
Don't get all bent out of shape with the specific numbers I used, they're just for illustration. The point is that the system will use less power to produce a 110dB 120Hz sound wave than a 110dB 40Hz sound wave. Hence, the midbass driver does not require 200W of power to keep up with the 1000W sub ... 100W will do just fine. In my example above, the deck power for the front speakers is just fine keeping up with a 100W sub.
Go ahead and run a 70Hz sine wave at high volume for about 10 minutes on your sub, the amp won't even break a sweat. Run a 30Hz wave for about 1 minute and see how hot the amp gets.
I want a Hearse, but my wife will divorce me if I ever bring one home
@ ArsenalProAudio
For starters, let's clarify what you are referring to.
A typical vehicle that doesn't have a premium sound system in it will have 18W per channel off the deck, no crossovers, no EQ, a 5.25 or 6.5" speaker in each front door and two 6.5 or 6x9" speakers in the rear deck. The response curve will roll off below 80Hz and above 8kHz. Between 80Hz and 8kHz the graph will be a total mess. There will be peaks and valleys all over the place, besides the fact that with the default front to rear fade your soundstage will continuously move around depending on the frequency range.
Imagine the following process:
1) install a decent deck with crossovers and EQ
2) highpass the fronts and rears at 80Hz
3) fade to the front so the rears are just providing fill instead of stealing the stage from the front
4) set up the EQ to depress the 250Hz to 2kHz range a bit, give some balance to the front speaker output
5) put a 100W 8" sub in the trunk lowpassed at 80Hz (something like a Kicker BassStation PT8)
6) tweak the EQ in the 40Hz to 80Hz range to tame the hump you normally get there
Now, we are still running the same speakers, power from the new deck will probably be much cleaner and increase to about 22W per channel. So the sub is fed with about 5x the power of the "midbass" drivers (which are the 6.5" in the doors) Running at modest levels, this setup will sound great. It's not going to win SQ competitions, but the point I am making is that you can achieve BALANCE without a dedicated midbass driver. A 5.25 or 6.5" driver can handle 80Hz to 5kHz easily. If peaks and valleys occur across that spectrum, settle them down with EQ.
It seems to me that you are getting bogged down with rated power, and don't really understand how the music is being reproduced by the system. Let me try to explain it a bit better. There are a number of reasons you use 5x the power to run the sub compared to the mid, but more important to understand is that the amount of power required for a given driver to reproduce different frequencies varies. The best way to see this in action is to run a sine sweep from 20Hz to 12kHz and monitor the power output of the amps. You will see the power output drop off drastically as you move into the higher frequencies, yet the sound output remains relatively unchanged.
As a rough numbers example, you would see something like the following chart:
Sub amp
20Hz - 800W
40Hz - 400W
80Hz - 100W
Midrange amp (running a passive component set)
mid
80Hz - 100W
500Hz - 50W
2kHz - 20W
4kHz - 10W
tweeter
4kHz - 10W
8kHz - 5W
12kHz - 2W
Don't get all bent out of shape with the specific numbers I used, they're just for illustration. The point is that the system will use less power to produce a 110dB 120Hz sound wave than a 110dB 40Hz sound wave. Hence, the midbass driver does not require 200W of power to keep up with the 1000W sub ... 100W will do just fine. In my example above, the deck power for the front speakers is just fine keeping up with a 100W sub.
Go ahead and run a 70Hz sine wave at high volume for about 10 minutes on your sub, the amp won't even break a sweat. Run a 30Hz wave for about 1 minute and see how hot the amp gets.
10-20-2011, 11:45 AM
#29
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 23
/envy
I want a Hearse, but my wife will divorce me if I ever bring one home
@ ArsenalProAudio
For starters, let's clarify what you are referring to.
A typical vehicle that doesn't have a premium sound system in it will have 18W per channel off the deck, no crossovers, no EQ, a 5.25 or 6.5" speaker in each front door and two 6.5 or 6x9" speakers in the rear deck. The response curve will roll off below 80Hz and above 8kHz. Between 80Hz and 8kHz the graph will be a total mess. There will be peaks and valleys all over the place, besides the fact that with the default front to rear fade your soundstage will continuously move around depending on the frequency range.
Imagine the following process:
1) install a decent deck with crossovers and EQ
2) highpass the fronts and rears at 80Hz
3) fade to the front so the rears are just providing fill instead of stealing the stage from the front
4) set up the EQ to depress the 250Hz to 2kHz range a bit, give some balance to the front speaker output
5) put a 100W 8" sub in the trunk lowpassed at 80Hz (something like a Kicker BassStation PT8)
6) tweak the EQ in the 40Hz to 80Hz range to tame the hump you normally get there
Now, we are still running the same speakers, power from the new deck will probably be much cleaner and increase to about 22W per channel. So the sub is fed with about 5x the power of the "midbass" drivers (which are the 6.5" in the doors) Running at modest levels, this setup will sound great. It's not going to win SQ competitions, but the point I am making is that you can achieve BALANCE without a dedicated midbass driver. A 5.25 or 6.5" driver can handle 80Hz to 5kHz easily. If peaks and valleys occur across that spectrum, settle them down with EQ.
It seems to me that you are getting bogged down with rated power, and don't really understand how the music is being reproduced by the system. Let me try to explain it a bit better. There are a number of reasons you use 5x the power to run the sub compared to the mid, but more important to understand is that the amount of power required for a given driver to reproduce different frequencies varies. The best way to see this in action is to run a sine sweep from 20Hz to 12kHz and monitor the power output of the amps. You will see the power output drop off drastically as you move into the higher frequencies, yet the sound output remains relatively unchanged.
As a rough numbers example, you would see something like the following chart:
Sub amp
20Hz - 800W
40Hz - 400W
80Hz - 100W
Midrange amp (running a passive component set)
mid
80Hz - 100W
500Hz - 50W
2kHz - 20W
4kHz - 10W
tweeter
4kHz - 10W
8kHz - 5W
12kHz - 2W
Don't get all bent out of shape with the specific numbers I used, they're just for illustration. The point is that the system will use less power to produce a 110dB 120Hz sound wave than a 110dB 40Hz sound wave. Hence, the midbass driver does not require 200W of power to keep up with the 1000W sub ... 100W will do just fine. In my example above, the deck power for the front speakers is just fine keeping up with a 100W sub.
Go ahead and run a 70Hz sine wave at high volume for about 10 minutes on your sub, the amp won't even break a sweat. Run a 30Hz wave for about 1 minute and see how hot the amp gets.
I want a Hearse, but my wife will divorce me if I ever bring one home
@ ArsenalProAudio
For starters, let's clarify what you are referring to.
A typical vehicle that doesn't have a premium sound system in it will have 18W per channel off the deck, no crossovers, no EQ, a 5.25 or 6.5" speaker in each front door and two 6.5 or 6x9" speakers in the rear deck. The response curve will roll off below 80Hz and above 8kHz. Between 80Hz and 8kHz the graph will be a total mess. There will be peaks and valleys all over the place, besides the fact that with the default front to rear fade your soundstage will continuously move around depending on the frequency range.
Imagine the following process:
1) install a decent deck with crossovers and EQ
2) highpass the fronts and rears at 80Hz
3) fade to the front so the rears are just providing fill instead of stealing the stage from the front
4) set up the EQ to depress the 250Hz to 2kHz range a bit, give some balance to the front speaker output
5) put a 100W 8" sub in the trunk lowpassed at 80Hz (something like a Kicker BassStation PT8)
6) tweak the EQ in the 40Hz to 80Hz range to tame the hump you normally get there
Now, we are still running the same speakers, power from the new deck will probably be much cleaner and increase to about 22W per channel. So the sub is fed with about 5x the power of the "midbass" drivers (which are the 6.5" in the doors) Running at modest levels, this setup will sound great. It's not going to win SQ competitions, but the point I am making is that you can achieve BALANCE without a dedicated midbass driver. A 5.25 or 6.5" driver can handle 80Hz to 5kHz easily. If peaks and valleys occur across that spectrum, settle them down with EQ.
It seems to me that you are getting bogged down with rated power, and don't really understand how the music is being reproduced by the system. Let me try to explain it a bit better. There are a number of reasons you use 5x the power to run the sub compared to the mid, but more important to understand is that the amount of power required for a given driver to reproduce different frequencies varies. The best way to see this in action is to run a sine sweep from 20Hz to 12kHz and monitor the power output of the amps. You will see the power output drop off drastically as you move into the higher frequencies, yet the sound output remains relatively unchanged.
As a rough numbers example, you would see something like the following chart:
Sub amp
20Hz - 800W
40Hz - 400W
80Hz - 100W
Midrange amp (running a passive component set)
mid
80Hz - 100W
500Hz - 50W
2kHz - 20W
4kHz - 10W
tweeter
4kHz - 10W
8kHz - 5W
12kHz - 2W
Don't get all bent out of shape with the specific numbers I used, they're just for illustration. The point is that the system will use less power to produce a 110dB 120Hz sound wave than a 110dB 40Hz sound wave. Hence, the midbass driver does not require 200W of power to keep up with the 1000W sub ... 100W will do just fine. In my example above, the deck power for the front speakers is just fine keeping up with a 100W sub.
Go ahead and run a 70Hz sine wave at high volume for about 10 minutes on your sub, the amp won't even break a sweat. Run a 30Hz wave for about 1 minute and see how hot the amp gets.
http://www.helixhifi.com/products/pr...tem_id=142203#
Last edited by Dukk; 10-20-2011 at 02:26 PM.
