Horn question.
07-07-2004, 05:53 PM
#21
Goalie Man
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,412
go to klipsch.com and post on there . i have had the honor of going through there training on the design of there speakers, and the reason they sound so damn good is there horns, also i have talked with the boys at usd audio and have run waveguides since 96 i just love them. but for a real answer to your question ask the best in the business and that would be tech support at klipsch, trust me they are awsome and very smart.
07-07-2004, 08:22 PM
#22
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,649
Originally posted by SUX 2BU:
I also understand from what I have read that the mouth area to be a determing factor in the lower cut-off frequency of the horn. The throat area, at the driver, being the upper frequency cut-off. And the length of the horn affecting efficiency of it, but that I'm not 100% about.
I also understand from what I have read that the mouth area to be a determing factor in the lower cut-off frequency of the horn. The throat area, at the driver, being the upper frequency cut-off. And the length of the horn affecting efficiency of it, but that I'm not 100% about.
07-08-2004, 09:51 AM
#23
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 146
I have a Veritas 75VD horn with the flared mouth at each end...the curves on each side of the horn mouth are designed so they reflect ambient sound off the side of the horn onto your car door/ where it travels up the door to the side of your ears...this creates a natural ambiance in the car giving the effect of natural surround sound with no rear fill...Assuming your doors have a nice curved surface to reflect and carry the sound to your ears...other wise the sound will stop dead in it's tracks with a square shaped door. ------ The center of the mouth of this type of horn also helps keep a solid center image...but only if your Dash is shaped in a way to carry the sound wave up to the center of your windsheild.
This is a theory that needs complex calculations in order for it to work properly...but in the end it does work.
My doors and dash are smothly shaped in such a way to carry the sound waves travelling from the horn to your ears...giving a very impressive illusion of depth...ambiance/surround...and center image...without too much processing.
I have my horns mounted at a 45 degree angle also...which I beleive if they were mounted straight -on would not of produced the same effects.
[img]graemlins/jammin.gif[/img]
This is a theory that needs complex calculations in order for it to work properly...but in the end it does work.
My doors and dash are smothly shaped in such a way to carry the sound waves travelling from the horn to your ears...giving a very impressive illusion of depth...ambiance/surround...and center image...without too much processing.
I have my horns mounted at a 45 degree angle also...which I beleive if they were mounted straight -on would not of produced the same effects.
[img]graemlins/jammin.gif[/img]
07-08-2004, 11:44 AM
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Halo-you are so far off base with your horn analogies (here and on carsound.com)it is getting rediculous. AS2K and Don Richardson designed the Veritas horn and as I mentioned above have several tech sheets that were written on the design of the Veritas lense. I highly recomend you pick them up and give them a read, they specificaly go in to detail about the lense design, and the flair at the mouth of the horn...It has nothing to do with ambience, or reflecting of surfaces.
07-08-2004, 12:22 PM
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally posted by bigmike216:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SUX 2BU:
I also understand from what I have read that the mouth area to be a determing factor in the lower cut-off frequency of the horn. The throat area, at the driver, being the upper frequency cut-off. And the length of the horn affecting efficiency of it, but that I'm not 100% about.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SUX 2BU:
I also understand from what I have read that the mouth area to be a determing factor in the lower cut-off frequency of the horn. The throat area, at the driver, being the upper frequency cut-off. And the length of the horn affecting efficiency of it, but that I'm not 100% about.
07-08-2004, 04:07 PM
#26
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 146
Ok...I do not think it is getting ridiculus...in fact my theory on the Design of this Horn is puzzling...I first thought that this type of Design was to be user friendly...mounting the horn mouth any way you needed to save space if the Magnets where too large...given the shape of the horns mouth you would think so...
But unfortunatley it's not the real reason these Horns are shaped this way... I plan on calling BILL Himself on this subject...
The sound from the side of the horn travels up the side of the door----probably FREQ'S---2Khz and up...assuming the diameter of the mouth allows for these higher frequencies to pass through...the center part of the horns throat passes all the FREQ'S Between----800hz and UP---because it is flared even bigger...
Thats where placment of vocals comes in...they all squeeze through the horns mouth in extact order that they where recordred in LFT/RGHT...getting a few minor refelctions from the steering wheel etc./ but nothing an EQ couldn't fix.
Yes these Horns where CLEVERLY Designed and not many people are using them to their full potential.
MY car used to have TWO 3" midranges on top of the dash...when you listened to the music the soundstage was decent but overall sound very weak...
(This was a test I did to see how TWO front speakers would sound like...if they where mounted right in front of you with no rear fill)...the results of this test was a Decent front stage but required some speakers for rear fill...)(HMM how are TWO HORNS MOUNTED AT MY FEET GONNA SOUND ANY BETTER?) [img]graemlins/puke.gif[/img] Small problem...
Well when I installed the horns, the soundstage expanded like a loaf of bread...
If you sit in my car and look out the front window...you will notice the music is floating on top of the Dash...with no speakers there!!!...
Now I would like to know how can YOU tell ME that my theory is rediculus when you havn't even sat in my car.
And how can I have virtual Surround sound in the car with no rear fill?---Assuming I compare the sound from two 3" speakers mounted on the Dash to two speakers mounted at my kees.
The reason is the DESIGN of these horns. Does any-one in car-audio know this?----from what I understand probably not-----trial and error consumes alot of time and money----no-one has time to try different aproaches.
The fact is to acheive a soundstage that doesn't shift left or right or up and down you need to make sure the Surface the sound is travelling on is countoured in a way as to reflect the sound up to your ears....it's probably basic physics but I'm not a physicist.
I'm gonna call Bill on this subject and get back.
These horns rock! [img]graemlins/bow.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/jawdrop.gif[/img]
But unfortunatley it's not the real reason these Horns are shaped this way... I plan on calling BILL Himself on this subject...
The sound from the side of the horn travels up the side of the door----probably FREQ'S---2Khz and up...assuming the diameter of the mouth allows for these higher frequencies to pass through...the center part of the horns throat passes all the FREQ'S Between----800hz and UP---because it is flared even bigger...
Thats where placment of vocals comes in...they all squeeze through the horns mouth in extact order that they where recordred in LFT/RGHT...getting a few minor refelctions from the steering wheel etc./ but nothing an EQ couldn't fix.
Yes these Horns where CLEVERLY Designed and not many people are using them to their full potential.
MY car used to have TWO 3" midranges on top of the dash...when you listened to the music the soundstage was decent but overall sound very weak...
(This was a test I did to see how TWO front speakers would sound like...if they where mounted right in front of you with no rear fill)...the results of this test was a Decent front stage but required some speakers for rear fill...)(HMM how are TWO HORNS MOUNTED AT MY FEET GONNA SOUND ANY BETTER?) [img]graemlins/puke.gif[/img] Small problem...
Well when I installed the horns, the soundstage expanded like a loaf of bread...
If you sit in my car and look out the front window...you will notice the music is floating on top of the Dash...with no speakers there!!!...
Now I would like to know how can YOU tell ME that my theory is rediculus when you havn't even sat in my car.
And how can I have virtual Surround sound in the car with no rear fill?---Assuming I compare the sound from two 3" speakers mounted on the Dash to two speakers mounted at my kees.
The reason is the DESIGN of these horns. Does any-one in car-audio know this?----from what I understand probably not-----trial and error consumes alot of time and money----no-one has time to try different aproaches.
The fact is to acheive a soundstage that doesn't shift left or right or up and down you need to make sure the Surface the sound is travelling on is countoured in a way as to reflect the sound up to your ears....it's probably basic physics but I'm not a physicist.
I'm gonna call Bill on this subject and get back.
These horns rock! [img]graemlins/bow.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/jawdrop.gif[/img]
07-08-2004, 05:26 PM
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Horns are designed to focus their energy in a narrow dispersion pattern, not "reflect" off interior panels. That's what makes them good for imaging. Now it is always a good idea to use the cars boundaries (usually the bottom of the dash) to extend the horn flare somewhat, but "rolling" the sound off the door panels is not what they do.
07-08-2004, 05:40 PM
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Halo-Please call Bill, you clearly need some enlightenment since you don't take any of the advice given from others here or on carsound. I spoke to Bill last week about the horns, good guy, but like I said, he never designed them.
Oh, BTW I have owned the 75VD's, 66VD's, 55VD's, 44VD's, Image Dynamics CD2 Comps/Mini's, CD1 Pro's, and a set of USD's some I do speak from experience...
Oh, BTW I have owned the 75VD's, 66VD's, 55VD's, 44VD's, Image Dynamics CD2 Comps/Mini's, CD1 Pro's, and a set of USD's some I do speak from experience...
07-09-2004, 12:33 AM
#29
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,649
Originally posted by Kilowatt:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bigmike216:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SUX 2BU:
I also understand from what I have read that the mouth area to be a determing factor in the lower cut-off frequency of the horn. The throat area, at the driver, being the upper frequency cut-off. And the length of the horn affecting efficiency of it, but that I'm not 100% about.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bigmike216:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SUX 2BU:
I also understand from what I have read that the mouth area to be a determing factor in the lower cut-off frequency of the horn. The throat area, at the driver, being the upper frequency cut-off. And the length of the horn affecting efficiency of it, but that I'm not 100% about.
[ July 09, 2004, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: bigmike216 ]
