View Poll Results: Am I wasting my valuable time?
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Ask Me Anything About Audio System Design
12-05-2010, 07:42 PM
#421
Goalie Man
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,412
I knew all of that but I think with or without proper imaging I would choose Morels running off a deck and in a stock location over Type-Rs with amps, signal processors, and proper imaging so to me the speaker is the strongest point. It was hypothetical, and I wouldn't just buy high end speakers and not set them up properly. Unless you can get bad speakers to sound like high end ones with a little angling, I'm going to think that high-quality speakers will be the deciding factor of my SQ preferences. Not that it's a lazy attempt at SQ, I was correcting dogbaker when he said a speaker is the weakest point. It changes the sound the most, right?
What is imaging exactly? Hearing the same frequency responses at the listening point from each speaker? I put my head between my front seats and it sounded just as horrible. I've become acustomed to bad imaging.
What is imaging exactly? Hearing the same frequency responses at the listening point from each speaker? I put my head between my front seats and it sounded just as horrible. I've become acustomed to bad imaging.
12-05-2010, 08:01 PM
#422
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 28
Hi Goalie - feel free, thanks for the assist!
Last edited by Newguy; 12-06-2010 at 01:55 AM.
12-05-2010, 08:03 PM
#423
Administrator
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 16,855
The speaker is the weakest point and why it is the most important. The efficiency, accuracy, and distortion of a speaker is decades worse than any of the other components of the system. Plus one speaker can and does sound significantly different than the next, so selection is critical.
12-05-2010, 08:30 PM
#424
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 28
well thats what everyone seems to say in here
12-05-2010, 08:40 PM
#425
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevmurray
OK but how do speaker cables affect phase? Sorry to make you text it out again but I don't see how speaker cables were addressed.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Hello
LOL - I was hoping that was enough, but here's a little more of the picture - electrons don't travel at a constant rate (speed = time = phase) in fact, the only type of energy transmission which has a constant (in a vacuum) is light - outside of a vacuum even light can be decayed etc... (if you want to understand this better just ask and I will shed some light on this as well).
All frequencies travel at different rates through cables and the cable itself is in fact a band-pass filter, decaying low and high frequencies and adding delays to some within the band-pass... the reason for this is that every cable has one order of capacitance, inductance and resistance... therefore phase variances are inherently present, basic fact in all such circuits!
There are other factors, the metals: copper vs. Aluminum, for example - energy travels faster through aluminum then it does copper - and aluminum has a completely different magnitude of inductance and capacitance qualities outside of the resistive differences, to that of copper (in fact copper cable vs. copper cable quality vary) etc... These factors affect frequency response and transparency and system Qtc plus-plus-plus...
There’s even more - cable loss and back-EMF, at high frequencies the cables jacket becomes very important (more so in highly resistive cables) as some of the high frequencies can actually leak out of the cable and at lengths over 8' back - EMF starts to become significant and audible and standing waves start (frequencies start to propagate from one-end of the cable to the other) adding or subtracting energy (at certain frequencies) that we as humans are very sensitive to...
There’s is still more, cable impurities - high frequencies are very sensitive to these and as a result the bass loses detail and the highs becoming bright and the sound stage often becomes underwhelming and inaccurate etc... Keep your cables the same length and cut from the same spool...
Do you need more - please understand that while resistance controls the quantity of electrons within a circuit, it also contributes to the rate at which the resulting electrons are passing: High resistance = lower electron count, but a faster velocity - couple this with capacitance, which is a current delaying component and we now have a slowing, but only at certain frequencies, so there is no constant... and the whole thing becomes very complex, but measurable...
When the electrical qualities of the cable are interconnected with a speaker and an amp, they all sum and output a specific frequency response, with their own unique group delay scores, impulse scores and global phase response scores – if we we’re then to change a single element and retake our objective measurements, all of the scores would changes as would the sound!
Each Sound system has a specific Qtc score at a specific input (Wattage) Qtc is a basic product of a weighted blend of group QMS and QES scores – the amp and cabling contribute to the QES scores and the speaker contributes to both – change anyone and the math changes and if the math changes the sound changes!
Order of greatest change – objective or subjective
1. Speaker
2. Pre-amp
3. Source
4. Amp
5. Cable
In a car, cables are long and have higher losses and the cables degrade faster... but the benefits are often lost or masked to road noise and other unwanted ingression acoustic signals... So in a car, keep the cables as short as possible, of high strand count, and of 99.999% pure oxygen free copper and 16 Gauge AWG! For subs use 12 Gauge... if you’re passing more than 30amps over 6’ use 10 or 8Gauge...
And by the way, there is still more!
If you have a degree in engineering - I will email you the math in a private email...
Originally Posted by kevmurray
OK but how do speaker cables affect phase? Sorry to make you text it out again but I don't see how speaker cables were addressed.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Hello
LOL - I was hoping that was enough, but here's a little more of the picture - electrons don't travel at a constant rate (speed = time = phase) in fact, the only type of energy transmission which has a constant (in a vacuum) is light - outside of a vacuum even light can be decayed etc... (if you want to understand this better just ask and I will shed some light on this as well).
All frequencies travel at different rates through cables and the cable itself is in fact a band-pass filter, decaying low and high frequencies and adding delays to some within the band-pass... the reason for this is that every cable has one order of capacitance, inductance and resistance... therefore phase variances are inherently present, basic fact in all such circuits!
There are other factors, the metals: copper vs. Aluminum, for example - energy travels faster through aluminum then it does copper - and aluminum has a completely different magnitude of inductance and capacitance qualities outside of the resistive differences, to that of copper (in fact copper cable vs. copper cable quality vary) etc... These factors affect frequency response and transparency and system Qtc plus-plus-plus...
There’s even more - cable loss and back-EMF, at high frequencies the cables jacket becomes very important (more so in highly resistive cables) as some of the high frequencies can actually leak out of the cable and at lengths over 8' back - EMF starts to become significant and audible and standing waves start (frequencies start to propagate from one-end of the cable to the other) adding or subtracting energy (at certain frequencies) that we as humans are very sensitive to...
There’s is still more, cable impurities - high frequencies are very sensitive to these and as a result the bass loses detail and the highs becoming bright and the sound stage often becomes underwhelming and inaccurate etc... Keep your cables the same length and cut from the same spool...
Do you need more - please understand that while resistance controls the quantity of electrons within a circuit, it also contributes to the rate at which the resulting electrons are passing: High resistance = lower electron count, but a faster velocity - couple this with capacitance, which is a current delaying component and we now have a slowing, but only at certain frequencies, so there is no constant... and the whole thing becomes very complex, but measurable...
When the electrical qualities of the cable are interconnected with a speaker and an amp, they all sum and output a specific frequency response, with their own unique group delay scores, impulse scores and global phase response scores – if we we’re then to change a single element and retake our objective measurements, all of the scores would changes as would the sound!
Each Sound system has a specific Qtc score at a specific input (Wattage) Qtc is a basic product of a weighted blend of group QMS and QES scores – the amp and cabling contribute to the QES scores and the speaker contributes to both – change anyone and the math changes and if the math changes the sound changes!
Order of greatest change – objective or subjective
1. Speaker
2. Pre-amp
3. Source
4. Amp
5. Cable
In a car, cables are long and have higher losses and the cables degrade faster... but the benefits are often lost or masked to road noise and other unwanted ingression acoustic signals... So in a car, keep the cables as short as possible, of high strand count, and of 99.999% pure oxygen free copper and 16 Gauge AWG! For subs use 12 Gauge... if you’re passing more than 30amps over 6’ use 10 or 8Gauge...
And by the way, there is still more!
If you have a degree in engineering - I will email you the math in a private email...
12-05-2010, 09:02 PM
#426
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 28
you do realize that dog said free field as in outside at 100 feet? put your head 3 feet from the mouth on this thing and you'd be at 182db. put in a building and it would go higher. that’s just on a meter, to a human standing nearby it could very well be the loudest, scariest occurrence of their life...
12-05-2010, 09:09 PM
#427
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 11
Exactly as the name implies.
It's the stereophonic quality of the 'soundstage', due to amplitude, time arrival, and frequency response differences between the L and R program material, and the ratio of direct/indirect(ambient) sounds in each channel.
The primary (but by no means all) factors that influence imaging are linearity. Any non linearity (distortion) will affect how 'holographic' the soundstage appears.
Being that in a car, one is seated approx. 3-5 times closer to one channel than the other. The imaging will always be negatively affected due to the amplitude, frequency response, and time arrival differences of the L and R channels to the listener.
You can alter the amplitude differences, but this does nothing for FR and time arrival.
Agreed.
However, what also must be understood is how the speaker transfers movement into waves, and how (in the case of a vehicle) that air is influenced by the envelope that surrounds that volume of air.
What the listener in a car is experiencing, is an extremely high ratio of indirect to direct sound, which results in comb filtering effects to the final sounds the listener hears.
Talking about electrons and the skin effect of wires, is a complete waste of time, in this listening environment, which, on top of the aforementioned problems, has an incredibly low signal to noise ratio (aka : high noise floor).
It's the stereophonic quality of the 'soundstage', due to amplitude, time arrival, and frequency response differences between the L and R program material, and the ratio of direct/indirect(ambient) sounds in each channel.
The primary (but by no means all) factors that influence imaging are linearity. Any non linearity (distortion) will affect how 'holographic' the soundstage appears.
Being that in a car, one is seated approx. 3-5 times closer to one channel than the other. The imaging will always be negatively affected due to the amplitude, frequency response, and time arrival differences of the L and R channels to the listener.
You can alter the amplitude differences, but this does nothing for FR and time arrival.
The speaker is the weakest point and why it is the most important. The efficiency, accuracy, and distortion of a speaker is decades worse than any of the other components of the system. Plus one speaker can and does sound significantly different than the next, so selection is critical.
However, what also must be understood is how the speaker transfers movement into waves, and how (in the case of a vehicle) that air is influenced by the envelope that surrounds that volume of air.
What the listener in a car is experiencing, is an extremely high ratio of indirect to direct sound, which results in comb filtering effects to the final sounds the listener hears.
Talking about electrons and the skin effect of wires, is a complete waste of time, in this listening environment, which, on top of the aforementioned problems, has an incredibly low signal to noise ratio (aka : high noise floor).
12-05-2010, 09:15 PM
#428
The speaker is the weakest point and why it is the most important. The efficiency, accuracy, and distortion of a speaker is decades worse than any of the other components of the system. Plus one speaker can and does sound significantly different than the next, so selection is critical.
12-05-2010, 09:20 PM
#429
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 28
pfffffffffff so it's a no i guess? i kinda figured.
the fact that you really believe you will gain 10 db's by multiplying power 10x indicated that eve if you said yes it would still be a waste of my time.
you know what's funny, that you also truelly belive that you are the only one with resources and knowledge, and that 5 years ago you think you broke all SPL barriers............pffffff stupid Pioneer, Fosgate, Memphis and Crossfire dumping all the time, money, research and testing into their high output SPL vehicles with all the subs, amps, batteries and countless hours of work...........they should have just asked YOU.
the fact that you really believe you will gain 10 db's by multiplying power 10x indicated that eve if you said yes it would still be a waste of my time.
you know what's funny, that you also truelly belive that you are the only one with resources and knowledge, and that 5 years ago you think you broke all SPL barriers............pffffff stupid Pioneer, Fosgate, Memphis and Crossfire dumping all the time, money, research and testing into their high output SPL vehicles with all the subs, amps, batteries and countless hours of work...........they should have just asked YOU.
Cut the man some slack
12-05-2010, 09:29 PM
#430
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 28
Enough about the Tapped Horn - I have provided a link (in previous text) to Danley's white paper describing all of the benefits of their most recent modifications to the design...
Go argue to Tom Danely (a NASA Scientist) and the patent office for granting him several patents based on his research.
YOU asked about getting louder - I have simply said that a more efficient box would be a good place to start and I recommended that you look into Danley... I didn't tell you that your system was or to pull it out...
So if you're really interested in more output, stop being so emotional and afraid to consider something new - I only said consider, objectively, look at all the facts and decide if it's worth the risk to you to go down a road less traveled...
I am not saying the a Tapped Horn is the best route for everyone, just that Danleys version is the most efficient box alignment conceived to date - not my opinion, but objective fact.
That is why there the number one bass systems sold in the USA and pro-audio...
They are also used in he-end home theatre when there is room, as Tapped system traditionally requires larger boxes then ported etc...
But if you use smaller drivers, you could build a much smaller box and drop it in most vehicles...
But in terms of all out dB drag - where space is available - they're an option worth consider...
So for the last time, stop arguing with me and go argue with Tom Danley PhD and the patent office, the same one that has granted patents on the variations that you're current using...
And lastly - this is not an SPL tread - enough about the Tapped Horn - I have provided a link (in previous text) to Danley's white paper describing all of the benefits of their most recent modifications to the design...
Go argue to Tom Danely (a NASA Scientist) and the patent office for granting him several patents based on his research.
YOU asked about getting louder - I have simply said that a more efficient box would be a good place to start and I recommended that you look into Danley... I didn't tell you that your system was or to pull it out...
So if you're really interested in more output, stop being so emotional and afraid to consider something new - I only said consider, objectively, look at all the facts and decide if it's worth the risk to you to go down a road less traveled...
I am not saying the a Tapped Horn is the best route for everyone, just that Danleys version is the most efficient box alignment conceived to date - not my opinion, but objective fact.
That is why there the number one bass systems sold in the USA in pro-audio...
They are also used in he-end home theatre when there is room, as Tapped systems traditionally require larger boxes then ported etc...
But if you use smaller drivers, you could build a much smaller box and drop it in most vehicles...
But in terms of all out dB drag - where space is available - they're an option worth consider...
So for the last time, stop arguing with me and go argue with Tom Danley PhD and the patent office, the same one that has granted patents on the variations that you're current using...
And lastly - this is not an SPL tread - it's an SQ tread...
And for some of you, after some consideration decide that you would like to build one of these things, be nice to me and I will help guide you through the process - hell, I might even test your drivers for you and send you a hardcopy of the actual specs...
Lesson number 1: Bad data = bad design - Good data = better design
I can help with getting Good Data and at no charge...it’s an SQ thread...
Have I repeated myself enough yet?
Go argue to Tom Danely (a NASA Scientist) and the patent office for granting him several patents based on his research.
YOU asked about getting louder - I have simply said that a more efficient box would be a good place to start and I recommended that you look into Danley... I didn't tell you that your system was or to pull it out...
So if you're really interested in more output, stop being so emotional and afraid to consider something new - I only said consider, objectively, look at all the facts and decide if it's worth the risk to you to go down a road less traveled...
I am not saying the a Tapped Horn is the best route for everyone, just that Danleys version is the most efficient box alignment conceived to date - not my opinion, but objective fact.
That is why there the number one bass systems sold in the USA and pro-audio...
They are also used in he-end home theatre when there is room, as Tapped system traditionally requires larger boxes then ported etc...
But if you use smaller drivers, you could build a much smaller box and drop it in most vehicles...
But in terms of all out dB drag - where space is available - they're an option worth consider...
So for the last time, stop arguing with me and go argue with Tom Danley PhD and the patent office, the same one that has granted patents on the variations that you're current using...
And lastly - this is not an SPL tread - enough about the Tapped Horn - I have provided a link (in previous text) to Danley's white paper describing all of the benefits of their most recent modifications to the design...
Go argue to Tom Danely (a NASA Scientist) and the patent office for granting him several patents based on his research.
YOU asked about getting louder - I have simply said that a more efficient box would be a good place to start and I recommended that you look into Danley... I didn't tell you that your system was or to pull it out...
So if you're really interested in more output, stop being so emotional and afraid to consider something new - I only said consider, objectively, look at all the facts and decide if it's worth the risk to you to go down a road less traveled...
I am not saying the a Tapped Horn is the best route for everyone, just that Danleys version is the most efficient box alignment conceived to date - not my opinion, but objective fact.
That is why there the number one bass systems sold in the USA in pro-audio...
They are also used in he-end home theatre when there is room, as Tapped systems traditionally require larger boxes then ported etc...
But if you use smaller drivers, you could build a much smaller box and drop it in most vehicles...
But in terms of all out dB drag - where space is available - they're an option worth consider...
So for the last time, stop arguing with me and go argue with Tom Danley PhD and the patent office, the same one that has granted patents on the variations that you're current using...
And lastly - this is not an SPL tread - it's an SQ tread...
And for some of you, after some consideration decide that you would like to build one of these things, be nice to me and I will help guide you through the process - hell, I might even test your drivers for you and send you a hardcopy of the actual specs...
Lesson number 1: Bad data = bad design - Good data = better design
I can help with getting Good Data and at no charge...it’s an SQ thread...
Have I repeated myself enough yet?
just kidding i couldn't resist
how do handle repeating yourself so much
