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Ask Me Anything About Audio System Design
11-23-2010, 10:16 PM
#241
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
So many things wrong with this.... The fact is there is no use for zobels in active systems. The fact that YOU don' know this is mind boggling...
There was a huge thread about zobels not so long ago... here is an exert of why its useless in an active setup.... not that we couldn't implement zobel actively, because it can be done. The below quotes person is a smart cookie.
"...For example ... the all-mysterious "Zobel". All kinds of "magix" are erroneously attributed to it. Magix that are, of course, "lost" when you go active
A Zobel network does this : it compensates for the non-flat impedance of the driver, which helps the passive crossover behave like it's supposed to ... in fact, the Zobel compensates for a deficiency in the driver (non-flat impedance) so that the passive crossover can behave more like it's supposed to, more like a resistively-loaded crossover ... more like an active crossover.
We don't use Zobels in active crossovers (typically) because we don't need the compensation that they provide. There's no other "magic sq" associated with those Zobels.
Also ... a passive crossover and an active crossover will provide the EXACT same phase shift, per order of filtering. You don't gain any "phase benefit" by going passive ..."
A notch filter can, of course, be done actively... just like anything else you can do passively.
You loose.
There was a huge thread about zobels not so long ago... here is an exert of why its useless in an active setup.... not that we couldn't implement zobel actively, because it can be done. The below quotes person is a smart cookie.
"...For example ... the all-mysterious "Zobel". All kinds of "magix" are erroneously attributed to it. Magix that are, of course, "lost" when you go active
A Zobel network does this : it compensates for the non-flat impedance of the driver, which helps the passive crossover behave like it's supposed to ... in fact, the Zobel compensates for a deficiency in the driver (non-flat impedance) so that the passive crossover can behave more like it's supposed to, more like a resistively-loaded crossover ... more like an active crossover.
We don't use Zobels in active crossovers (typically) because we don't need the compensation that they provide. There's no other "magic sq" associated with those Zobels.
Also ... a passive crossover and an active crossover will provide the EXACT same phase shift, per order of filtering. You don't gain any "phase benefit" by going passive ..."
A notch filter can, of course, be done actively... just like anything else you can do passively.
You loose.
You can't best me because you truly don’t understand the statements that you’re making!
The context was impedance - and stabilizing crossover frequency. In that context, the author you quote is correct.
However, as resistance affects everything - so does it's fluctuations; at a minimum, it will roll-off frequency, increase the delays in upper frequency prorogation of said driver, and work against the amplifiers ability to output musical current, especially in a consumer level products... In other words, the crossover point benefit is only one of a few... If an engineer, determines that one or more that other qualities would benefit his active elements, they would not remise in implementing them.
Can you name one car audio manufacturer that makes a 12-Volt DSP unit that will allow you to create a filter configuration that will duplicate that or even come close to mimicking a notch filter - NO - There isn't one - never was!
And if you were to attempt it, you could only do it in the frequency domain, creating just as many additional errors, as you attempt to solve - proper adjustment can only be had at the direct high voltage electrical level, between the amp and the driver, as the anomaly originates at that level – not that the low voltage or acoustic levels and that’s all an active filter system can attempt to reconcile, with merit.
Just for fun AAAAAAA– please explain to us all how you would EXACTLY do it in the frequency domain – we are all waiting but none of us will hold our breath! I know that you won’t be able to!
I will wait days for your response and when it comes I will cut it down like every single one before it!
Stop trying to seem and sound smart by miss-quoting others, including me!
You can't beat me!
Why, because I am right and right, is simply right, as in CORRECT!
I see and know the complete picture - just when you think that you'll have me, I'll open a door to another reality for you.
The only good part in this for me – is that one day, the preverbal light bulb may go off in your head and you will have in fact have joined the ranks of the learned!
I was going say go back to high school, but perhaps you need to start further back - pre-school comes to mind... You try to take someone’s chocolate, and they will try to stop you! Get the picture - if you were a likeminded friend, they would most likely share their chocolate with you, willingly!
This is my thread and therefore my chocolate!
Next!
Last edited by dogbaker; 11-23-2010 at 11:21 PM.
11-23-2010, 10:20 PM
#242
One more thing: the part about the RE XXX 18'', that was a subwoofer from Resonant Engineering. I "Never" said anything about electro-mechanics. I think you thought I meant Re as in DC resistance. In another thread someone said that subwoofer had a great response at 20 hz. Sounds like tonality to me.
11-23-2010, 10:21 PM
#243
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
You still never came up with my tapped horn design, and that was way at the beginning of this thread. Oh, and thank you responding to me after you said you wouldn't. Looks like what they say is true, people who try to show they're smart aren't really that smart after all.
Get the picture - your comments just don't affect me - they more affect others, who are still trying to find a point of reference...
AND YOU SHOULDN"T BE THAT POINT!
So let's just call it my personal sense of duty and responsibility as and industry veteran!
I can't wait for your next out pouring!
Don't be surprized if I ignor you!
PS please read re-read past posts - I never globally volunteered to release a Danley design - that would be against the law - in fact I said that i wouldn't but that I would help guide the way to a few respecting people, which has begun... I wonder why you weren't invited!
Also I have clearly stated that this is an SQ thread - not an SPL thread and turn from any conversations that solely talk to SPL systems such as misaligned tapped horns (Danley Variant).
So again stop miss-quoting me!
Last edited by dogbaker; 11-23-2010 at 10:57 PM.
11-23-2010, 10:28 PM
#244
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
One more thing: the part about the RE XXX 18'', that was a subwoofer from Resonant Engineering. I "Never" said anything about electro-mechanics. I think you thought I meant Re as in DC resistance. In another thread someone said that subwoofer had a great response at 20 hz. Sounds like tonality to me.
I didn't think any such thing about RE - stop speaking for me - seriously!
If you mention a speaker - you mention electro-mechanical elements, as they go hand-in-foot, with each other.
The ever important QTS of a driver is comprised of losses which are encountered on the mechanical and electrical side - QMS & QES - speakers are electro-mechanical devices, they are not one or the other they are a product, if you will, of the two.
So to say speaker, driver etc, or to talk about one in any context, is to speak about both elements.
Truly - you couldn't reveal more, your lack of knowledge with regards to this topic!
Next!
And to your last point - a fart smell like - what's your point!
Last edited by dogbaker; 11-23-2010 at 10:59 PM.
11-23-2010, 10:33 PM
#245
Obviously all of your experience in car audio has made you lose sense of reality as an operating business. Name one car audio company that operates in the red? Eclipse? Better yet, name one company that operates in the red that isn't an NPO. That was my reasoning behind my Tim Hortons and profits point. They're necessary for everything to continue. That's why a 25 dollar set of speakers costs 300 retail.
Oh, and I used to hit 178 db's on a Termlab with my headphones, but because I've been competing since 2009 and have Cerwin Vega speakers for my turntables means I don't have to prove anything.
I can make wild claims and then say a lot of things that mean nothing too.
Contradiction?
Oh, and I used to hit 178 db's on a Termlab with my headphones, but because I've been competing since 2009 and have Cerwin Vega speakers for my turntables means I don't have to prove anything.
I can make wild claims and then say a lot of things that mean nothing too.
11-23-2010, 10:37 PM
#246
I didn't think any such thing about RE - stop speaking for me - seriously!
If you mention a speaker - you mention electro-mechanical elements they go hand-in-foot, with each other.
The ever important QTS of a driver is comprised of losses which are encountered on the mechanical and electrical side - QME & QES - speakers are electro-mechanical devices, they are not one or the other they are a product, if you will, of the two.
So to say speaker, driver etc, or to talk about one in any context, is to speak about both elements.
Truly - you couldn't reveal more, your lack of knowledge with regards to this topic!
Next!
And to your last point - a fart smell like - what's your point!
If you mention a speaker - you mention electro-mechanical elements they go hand-in-foot, with each other.
The ever important QTS of a driver is comprised of losses which are encountered on the mechanical and electrical side - QME & QES - speakers are electro-mechanical devices, they are not one or the other they are a product, if you will, of the two.
So to say speaker, driver etc, or to talk about one in any context, is to speak about both elements.
Truly - you couldn't reveal more, your lack of knowledge with regards to this topic!
Next!
And to your last point - a fart smell like - what's your point!
Wow, then how is it that you can sit there and say speaks and electro mechanical elements go together, and yet YOU FAIL TO DRAW A LINK BETWEEN PRODUCTS MADE BY A COMPANY AND PROFITS. Value added exists, which is why you probably pay more for your clothes than what they're worth. Your SQ accomplishments, or even your incredible SPL numbers at Mobile Dynamics are yet to be proven.
11-23-2010, 11:35 PM
#248
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
Obviously all of your experience in car audio has made you lose sense of reality as an operating business. Name one car audio company that operates in the red? Eclipse? Better yet, name one company that operates in the red that isn't an NPO. That was my reasoning behind my Tim Hortons and profits point. They're necessary for everything to continue. That's why a 25 dollar set of speakers costs 300 retail.
Oh, and I used to hit 178 db's on a Termlab with my headphones, but because I've been competing since 2009 and have Cerwin Vega speakers for my turntables means I don't have to prove anything.
I can make wild claims and then say a lot of things that mean nothing too.
Contradiction?
Oh, and I used to hit 178 db's on a Termlab with my headphones, but because I've been competing since 2009 and have Cerwin Vega speakers for my turntables means I don't have to prove anything.
I can make wild claims and then say a lot of things that mean nothing too.
Contradiction?
If you really need a fight that bad - go to a local bar, get drunk and pick a fight! At least that way, you and others will understand the context - it's a fist fight.
I have no idea what topic(s) you're likely to roam to, from one minute to the next!
You seem to pick up new topics from my illustrations - How about my illustration about - you should be comfortable talking about that!
Also ask yourself how I am able to always tie one-closing jab to the next - I'll tell you, it's because I am setting you up!
Yes - you're a predicable puppet!
Let's just agree to disagree and move on!
Happy learning!
11-24-2010, 12:17 AM
#249
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 310
WOW !!
I must say I am glad not to have wasted hours of my life reading this...
There is so much mumbo jumbo that 90%+ of readers on here wound not even comprehend half of what you saying... I am not bashing you, but for every answer you reply a long winded story about jesus kinda thing. Most of it means absolutly nothing to me. I do how ever get good laughs from those who been on here since forever.
I think if you "dumb it down" about ten notches your advise would go miles farther.
My experance with engineers in my feild are always full of of knowledge and no common sense or keep it simple. I cant even count no more how many times I have been to multi million dollar plants and had to prove to them how it needs to be done oppposed to How they think it is done...
I frequent this forum about 3 to 5 x a week , depends on my schedule and I must say Tonight is the first time I spent time looking through the pages... The horn thing imo is not going to work in a vehicle.. even in mine that is close to 10ft deep... I have built at least 1/2 dozen tl enclosures and ya I love em, but yuli is correct. a ported box in a car will be as loud or louder ... I have proved to my self and I will stand on his side.
My 2 cents on the deal. When I look for a product, Price is first and number one priority.
Then I start to look at some the t/s. and then look at how many peeps are using them.
take that info and go from there,. But imo a 100$ speaker is as good or better than a 1000$ speaker in a front end. Focal proved that to me years ago.. and the $$ is jsut a example. not to be used as referance to what peeps pay..
I must say I am glad not to have wasted hours of my life reading this...
There is so much mumbo jumbo that 90%+ of readers on here wound not even comprehend half of what you saying... I am not bashing you, but for every answer you reply a long winded story about jesus kinda thing. Most of it means absolutly nothing to me. I do how ever get good laughs from those who been on here since forever.
I think if you "dumb it down" about ten notches your advise would go miles farther.
My experance with engineers in my feild are always full of of knowledge and no common sense or keep it simple. I cant even count no more how many times I have been to multi million dollar plants and had to prove to them how it needs to be done oppposed to How they think it is done...
I frequent this forum about 3 to 5 x a week , depends on my schedule and I must say Tonight is the first time I spent time looking through the pages... The horn thing imo is not going to work in a vehicle.. even in mine that is close to 10ft deep... I have built at least 1/2 dozen tl enclosures and ya I love em, but yuli is correct. a ported box in a car will be as loud or louder ... I have proved to my self and I will stand on his side.
My 2 cents on the deal. When I look for a product, Price is first and number one priority.
Then I start to look at some the t/s. and then look at how many peeps are using them.
take that info and go from there,. But imo a 100$ speaker is as good or better than a 1000$ speaker in a front end. Focal proved that to me years ago.. and the $$ is jsut a example. not to be used as referance to what peeps pay..
Last edited by JL Stomper; 11-24-2010 at 12:18 AM. Reason: I see you reading this at 1:15 am your time, no work tomorow ?
11-24-2010, 12:39 AM
#250
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
WOW !!
I must say I am glad not to have wasted hours of my life reading this...
There is so much mumbo jumbo that 90%+ of readers on here wound not even comprehend half of what you saying... I am not bashing you, but for every answer you reply a long winded story about jesus kinda thing. Most of it means absolutly nothing to me. I do how ever get good laughs from those who been on here since forever.
I think if you "dumb it down" about ten notches your advise would go miles farther.
My experance with engineers in my feild are always full of of knowledge and no common sense or keep it simple. I cant even count no more how many times I have been to multi million dollar plants and had to prove to them how it needs to be done oppposed to How they think it is done...
I frequent this forum about 3 to 5 x a week , depends on my schedule and I must say Tonight is the first time I spent time looking through the pages... The horn thing imo is not going to work in a vehicle.. even in mine that is close to 10ft deep... I have built at least 1/2 dozen tl enclosures and ya I love em, but yuli is correct. a ported box in a car will be as loud or louder ... I have proved to my self and I will stand on his side.
My 2 cents on the deal. When I look for a product, Price is first and number one priority.
Then I start to look at some the t/s. and then look at how many peeps are using them.
take that info and go from there,. But imo a 100$ speaker is as good or better than a 1000$ speaker in a front end. Focal proved that to me years ago.. and the $$ is jsut a example. not to be used as referance to what peeps pay..
I must say I am glad not to have wasted hours of my life reading this...
There is so much mumbo jumbo that 90%+ of readers on here wound not even comprehend half of what you saying... I am not bashing you, but for every answer you reply a long winded story about jesus kinda thing. Most of it means absolutly nothing to me. I do how ever get good laughs from those who been on here since forever.
I think if you "dumb it down" about ten notches your advise would go miles farther.
My experance with engineers in my feild are always full of of knowledge and no common sense or keep it simple. I cant even count no more how many times I have been to multi million dollar plants and had to prove to them how it needs to be done oppposed to How they think it is done...
I frequent this forum about 3 to 5 x a week , depends on my schedule and I must say Tonight is the first time I spent time looking through the pages... The horn thing imo is not going to work in a vehicle.. even in mine that is close to 10ft deep... I have built at least 1/2 dozen tl enclosures and ya I love em, but yuli is correct. a ported box in a car will be as loud or louder ... I have proved to my self and I will stand on his side.
My 2 cents on the deal. When I look for a product, Price is first and number one priority.
Then I start to look at some the t/s. and then look at how many peeps are using them.
take that info and go from there,. But imo a 100$ speaker is as good or better than a 1000$ speaker in a front end. Focal proved that to me years ago.. and the $$ is jsut a example. not to be used as referance to what peeps pay..
I am new around here, and I am just coming to realize that even thought they (peeps as you put it) ask for deeper and more profound answers, they really aren't nessarily ready for them; however, some have been and we have struck up friendships. Others, simply pretend they have a glue and argue constantly...
So I have been working to provide lower level discriptions - however, when someone challanges me - I will meet them with a similar tone etc...
The horn thing is way to old for me to get back into, but much more was said then you referred to - It was a Tapped Horn Variant, patented by Danley - nothing like a TL or 4th order ported enclosure - infact, 90% different from a traditional or original Tapped Horn - also i was only saying that it would be worth considering and nothing more - and generously provided a link to the white papers, for individual consideration... The Danley variant is way smaller then a TL & Original Tapped design... simply FYI... Oh and i almost forgot - there's horn aspect is very mis-leading, I encourge you to look up the link I provided and at least have an ojective look. It's a newer approach.
Also, if you read deeper into my posts you will discover that my experiance as and installer etc exceeds that of my education - ratio 5:1... I am a field man - while the terms used within several of my posts sound high level, along with there concepts, they're not. They're simply fundemental.
Thanks again
Last edited by dogbaker; 11-24-2010 at 12:45 AM.
