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Ask Me Anything About Audio System Design
11-15-2010, 09:20 PM
#112
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukk
Are you ****ing kidding me? Oh man...
I have a better one. Go buy a 100foot spool of 16ga wire. Cut off 3 feet for one speaker and use the whole roll for the other side. See if you can hear a delay, or anything else for that matter, from side to side. No chance.
__________________________________________________ ____________
Guys you are so @#$%ing wrong!
I could point it out to you using just your ears - once you note it - you will develop OCD and never miss it again... any ways
I am going to take this to math - good luck refuting that!
Bring it on smart guy's - out of all this, a few will see the truth and this forum will start to grow...
Originally Posted by Dukk
Are you ****ing kidding me? Oh man...
I have a better one. Go buy a 100foot spool of 16ga wire. Cut off 3 feet for one speaker and use the whole roll for the other side. See if you can hear a delay, or anything else for that matter, from side to side. No chance.
__________________________________________________ ____________
Guys you are so @#$%ing wrong!
I could point it out to you using just your ears - once you note it - you will develop OCD and never miss it again... any ways
I am going to take this to math - good luck refuting that!
Bring it on smart guy's - out of all this, a few will see the truth and this forum will start to grow...
11-15-2010, 10:23 PM
#114
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogbaker
__________________________________________________ _
The rate of electron flow isn't constant nor is equal to that of photons in a vacuum (AKA Light)... This isn’t my opinion it is scientific fact...
I could cite the math – I also have the gear to make such measurements with!
Wow, where to begin. Though you may have access to a network analyzer and are able to measure the differences in cables, it is just plain irresponsible to use this as "evidence" in the audio realm.
Kevin, I have much more than a basic network tester – I have a cutting edge audio suite that is worth a nicely equipped Mercedes... I will provide you with a list of hardware and software if you require...
Transmission line parameters are largely useless in the audio world as the frequency is not high enough to make any difference. While things like skin effect and LCR losses are measurable in the audible band, unless the cables are ridiculously long or light no one could hear the loss.
Kevin, they have been proven to be ojectively measureable, the data that you and everyone else to date on this forum have cited is from pre-1995... Much has been refined since then with the advent of TDS, FFT, MLS, and the alike...
To say that the speaker cable's contribution to overall phase shift is "profound" is laughable.
Be careful you know what they say – he who laughs first ...
What type of phase shifts are you referring to – I am not talking about a fixed FRQ impulse – I am talking about impedance based delays that are discrete to frequency, I plot them every day, I will send you a plot – just send me an email address. At the same time I will have the plot include the timing shift per frequency... For any device , wire – speakers – amps – preamps... just ask and provide email address...
While the dielectric constant of speaker wire may not support transmission at light speed it is plenty fast enough to make path differences of over a hundred feet negligible in terms of phase.
Again, I think that you’re talking about a fix FRQ impulse measurement – but even at this level, everyone know agrees that lengths greater than 4’ feet start to create audible issues – just look at proliferation of receivers with impulse analysis and correct built in, but these no not offset the over time tilt as frequencies rise... Again, I have never said that they are always audible, but they’re measurable and that they contribute to over timing qualities of the entire system. More importantly, speaker wires can and do have a more profound effect other Qtc of the speakers to which they are interconnected... I can cite the math... and Qtc has a direct relationship to frequency response – this is well document by may – T/S to name one! Would you like to see the math? Just Ask....
The resistive losses may be significant but to say that the phase shift is perceptible is a joke.
Again watch the joking – laughing thing! And again, I didn’t say that they were always audible, please re-read me earlier text.
Furthermore phase, group delay and other colourations "in the pico range" are swamped by the total system THD+N.
Okay – on this one it is completely clear that you have very little experience with digital measurement equipment... Using a digital analyser that utilizes FFT technology, we have easily brake down a sample and determine what is signal and what is noise down to the Pico level – analog systems cannot – I have both as do most audio system designers do today... In fact, I can also determine the nature of the noise, using auto algorithms from Tektronix... they automatically compare them against a data base of known noise forms... This is very cool stuff and the stuff that I have been using for 10-years...
So please see this as an opportunity to learn a little more – I measure DA’s on a regular basis using this technology and EIA defined methodologies...
We are now narrowing in on new and amazing truths about human hearing and as a result are developing new audio technologies/products to cater to them... We have been mining Pico signals for years now...
Your posts contain so much inflated evidence, exaggerated statements, and obvious elitism that I don't know why I even bothered to respond.
It isn’t elitism, it’s enlightenment and nothing more... and deep down you probaly suspect that i might be correct, but you don't like my delivery - and I don't blame you!
Clearly I should be thankful you are here to school us.
You’re welcome!
BTW: The garden hose analogy was not mine.
I was able to figure that out... so no shame for you!
Originally Posted by dogbaker
__________________________________________________ _
The rate of electron flow isn't constant nor is equal to that of photons in a vacuum (AKA Light)... This isn’t my opinion it is scientific fact...
I could cite the math – I also have the gear to make such measurements with!
Wow, where to begin. Though you may have access to a network analyzer and are able to measure the differences in cables, it is just plain irresponsible to use this as "evidence" in the audio realm.
Kevin, I have much more than a basic network tester – I have a cutting edge audio suite that is worth a nicely equipped Mercedes... I will provide you with a list of hardware and software if you require...
Transmission line parameters are largely useless in the audio world as the frequency is not high enough to make any difference. While things like skin effect and LCR losses are measurable in the audible band, unless the cables are ridiculously long or light no one could hear the loss.
Kevin, they have been proven to be ojectively measureable, the data that you and everyone else to date on this forum have cited is from pre-1995... Much has been refined since then with the advent of TDS, FFT, MLS, and the alike...
To say that the speaker cable's contribution to overall phase shift is "profound" is laughable.
Be careful you know what they say – he who laughs first ...
What type of phase shifts are you referring to – I am not talking about a fixed FRQ impulse – I am talking about impedance based delays that are discrete to frequency, I plot them every day, I will send you a plot – just send me an email address. At the same time I will have the plot include the timing shift per frequency... For any device , wire – speakers – amps – preamps... just ask and provide email address...
While the dielectric constant of speaker wire may not support transmission at light speed it is plenty fast enough to make path differences of over a hundred feet negligible in terms of phase.
Again, I think that you’re talking about a fix FRQ impulse measurement – but even at this level, everyone know agrees that lengths greater than 4’ feet start to create audible issues – just look at proliferation of receivers with impulse analysis and correct built in, but these no not offset the over time tilt as frequencies rise... Again, I have never said that they are always audible, but they’re measurable and that they contribute to over timing qualities of the entire system. More importantly, speaker wires can and do have a more profound effect other Qtc of the speakers to which they are interconnected... I can cite the math... and Qtc has a direct relationship to frequency response – this is well document by may – T/S to name one! Would you like to see the math? Just Ask....
The resistive losses may be significant but to say that the phase shift is perceptible is a joke.
Again watch the joking – laughing thing! And again, I didn’t say that they were always audible, please re-read me earlier text.
Furthermore phase, group delay and other colourations "in the pico range" are swamped by the total system THD+N.
Okay – on this one it is completely clear that you have very little experience with digital measurement equipment... Using a digital analyser that utilizes FFT technology, we have easily brake down a sample and determine what is signal and what is noise down to the Pico level – analog systems cannot – I have both as do most audio system designers do today... In fact, I can also determine the nature of the noise, using auto algorithms from Tektronix... they automatically compare them against a data base of known noise forms... This is very cool stuff and the stuff that I have been using for 10-years...
So please see this as an opportunity to learn a little more – I measure DA’s on a regular basis using this technology and EIA defined methodologies...
We are now narrowing in on new and amazing truths about human hearing and as a result are developing new audio technologies/products to cater to them... We have been mining Pico signals for years now...
Your posts contain so much inflated evidence, exaggerated statements, and obvious elitism that I don't know why I even bothered to respond.
It isn’t elitism, it’s enlightenment and nothing more... and deep down you probaly suspect that i might be correct, but you don't like my delivery - and I don't blame you!
Clearly I should be thankful you are here to school us.
You’re welcome!
BTW: The garden hose analogy was not mine.
I was able to figure that out... so no shame for you!
Last edited by dogbaker; 11-16-2010 at 03:32 AM.
11-15-2010, 11:29 PM
#115
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
pfffffffffff so it's a no i guess? i kinda figured.
the fact that you really believe you will gain 10 db's by multiplying power 10x indicated that eve if you said yes it would still be a waste of my time.
you know what's funny, that you also truelly belive that you are the only one with resources and knowledge, and that 5 years ago you think you broke all SPL barriers............pffffff stupid Pioneer, Fosgate, Memphis and Crossfire dumping all the time, money, research and testing into their high output SPL vehicles with all the subs, amps, batteries and countless hours of work...........they should have just asked YOU.
the fact that you really believe you will gain 10 db's by multiplying power 10x indicated that eve if you said yes it would still be a waste of my time.
you know what's funny, that you also truelly belive that you are the only one with resources and knowledge, and that 5 years ago you think you broke all SPL barriers............pffffff stupid Pioneer, Fosgate, Memphis and Crossfire dumping all the time, money, research and testing into their high output SPL vehicles with all the subs, amps, batteries and countless hours of work...........they should have just asked YOU.
And by the way - stop miss-quoting me in an attempt to win a point - i never made any of the statements that you claim...
I was simply blowning you off - now blow...
11-16-2010, 12:10 AM
#116
you came here and said you could answer any question audio related and this is a car audio forum after all. You never answered my question rather you started going on about a tapped horn design? You continue to bash anyone who disagree's with your statements and are bashing them with petty insults and name calling...how professional.
You sir, are an arrogant POS, and have joined the retarded ranks the likes of DDKING "look his dumb *** up" your just a more educated retard...that would make you part of a minority lol. You have no idea about in-car spl competition so therefore your just not into it, and the same attitude can be seen in any student from MD working at big box store's as remote starter installers who think they eat god's for breakfast and lightning bolts. No wonder Mobile Dynamic's is still in business with such an intellectual faculty....Oh wait, they flopped! Yup, it all makes sense now.
You sir, are an arrogant POS, and have joined the retarded ranks the likes of DDKING "look his dumb *** up" your just a more educated retard...that would make you part of a minority lol. You have no idea about in-car spl competition so therefore your just not into it, and the same attitude can be seen in any student from MD working at big box store's as remote starter installers who think they eat god's for breakfast and lightning bolts. No wonder Mobile Dynamic's is still in business with such an intellectual faculty....Oh wait, they flopped! Yup, it all makes sense now.
11-16-2010, 12:43 AM
#117
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
you came here and said you could answer any question audio related and this is a car audio forum after all. You never answered my question rather you started going on about a tapped horn design? You continue to bash anyone who disagree's with your statements and are bashing them with petty insults and name calling...how professional.
You sir, are an arrogant POS, and have joined the retarded ranks the likes of DDKING "look his dumb *** up" your just a more educated retard...that would make you part of a minority lol. You have no idea about in-car spl competition so therefore your just not into it, and the same attitude can be seen in any student from MD working at big box store's as remote starter installers who think they eat god's for breakfast and lightning bolts. No wonder Mobile Dynamic's is still in business with such an intellectual faculty....Oh wait, they flopped! Yup, it all makes sense now.
You sir, are an arrogant POS, and have joined the retarded ranks the likes of DDKING "look his dumb *** up" your just a more educated retard...that would make you part of a minority lol. You have no idea about in-car spl competition so therefore your just not into it, and the same attitude can be seen in any student from MD working at big box store's as remote starter installers who think they eat god's for breakfast and lightning bolts. No wonder Mobile Dynamic's is still in business with such an intellectual faculty....Oh wait, they flopped! Yup, it all makes sense now.
I am here just for fun - don't be so serious....
Let's have some more fun shall we...
You came here and said you could answer any question audio related and this is a car audio forum after all.
Wrong - SQ Audio System Questions - limited bandwidth SPL systems don't meet my offer.
You never answered my question rather you started going on about a tapped horn design?
Wrong - I offered you a direction of research, then you and other attacked me for offering what seem to impossible to be true instead of taking a few days and looking into and coming back to me with good questions.
I made a few attempts to redirect everyone’s efforts and have now moved on...
You continue to bash anyone who disagrees with your statements and are bashing them with petty insults and name calling...how professional.
Yes - you're correct, I will always reply in like tone - if you smack talk me I will do the same - it's fun really - don't take it to heart. So start being nice and open minded and I will do the same...
You sir, are an arrogant POS, and have joined the retarded ranks the likes of DDKING "look his dumb *** up" your just a more educated retard...that would make you part of a minority lol.
LOL - Thank you for the effort at string so many words together and all for me!
You have no idea about in-car spl competition so therefore you’re just not into it, and the same attitude can be seen in any student from MD working at big box store's as remote starter installers who think they eat god's for breakfast and lightning bolts.
Odd - considering I was USAC's official technical advisor and mediator during technical disputes... - no your right though - What do I know about any of this - Oh Wait - I was also a technical editor for a major car audio mag for 5-years again - I have no investment in this industry...
No wonder Mobile Dynamic's is still in business with such an intellectual faculty....Oh wait, they flopped! Yup, it all makes sense now.
Yes - it is true mistakes we made mistakes, the staff actually gave a about guy's like you and like now tried to direct and help them...
I didn't come here to compete just teach and preach!
What did you expect, that I’d text you all the design elements after I had you ship me your driver for testing etc... I am here to teach you how to fish and feed yourself...
You and some others might think I am an *** or ... but that doesn't make what I am saying wrong!
Our industry is in trouble, and our future is rooted in you and others on this and other forums like it. I didn't come here to make people feel good about there systems, but rather to find a few keeners, put them on the right path and help them get a a decent job and develop a career!
Are you interest - if so, stair listening instead of talking...
Last edited by dogbaker; 11-16-2010 at 12:55 AM.
11-16-2010, 01:11 AM
#118
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 216
You should open a thread in the SPL section mr dogbaker,
we all know you are a grown up but come on, it is fun...
we all know you are a grown up but come on, it is fun...
11-16-2010, 01:23 AM
#119
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
i will in due time
11-16-2010, 01:58 AM
#120
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 216
Because if you open a topic over there I will invite you to come here in Winnipeg and help me with my tapped horn. Now don't tell me you also have a PhD in welding rusted tubing because that would be awesome! hahaha.
